Starting New Electric BIAB System and Have Questions

[Bigarcherynut]

I posted a picture of my new find in the equipment section and someone made mention about doing an electric build BIAB system. It peaked my interest and now I'm moving forward. I have been reading and searching and with some threads containing hundreds of posts decided to give my eyes a rest and ask some questions. Many questions I have, I read conflicting views and I'm learning most may be personal preference while some are necessary. I'm listing what I plan on doing from what I've read.

Here is a pic of the unit I obtained. It's a portable whirlpool. The capacity is 20 gallons. The unit has a bottom drain.

Here's what my plans are and questions I have.

Some of the parts:
Stainless steel 4500w 240v ripple water heater element
SYL-2362 PID Controller
RTD PT100 Temperature Sensor
ESSR-40DAC Solid State Relay, DC In AC Out, 40 amp
Not sure on circulation pump???? See question #6

I'm an electrician so I have access to all the items for my control panel (switches, pilot lights, contactors). I'm going with a 30A GFCI breaker, a main power switch and 30A input contactor rather than the EPO type circuit. At this time building a simple control system using PJ's Single Element BIAB 30A PID. I'm installing a control switch, SSR, 30A contactor and 4500 watt element for heat. One pilot light to show heater is enabled and one to show when SSR has output. PID controller with PT100 sensor for controlling heat.

Question #1 - Any concerns on components?
Question #2 - Planning on installing element as low as possible to bottom of tank. Can it be too low? Figure on 2" above bottom.
Question #3 - Read conflicting answers to placement of PT100 sensor. I was thinking 3" off bottom. When I checked the levels of the tank, each gallon represents 3/4". in level. That would put the sensor at the 4 gallon line. Should this be different?
Question #4 - I'm also installing a thermometer. Should it be at the same level as the PT100 sensor?
Question #5 - Should I have any concerns with the tank having a bottom drain? If I add a circulation pump it would draw from the drain.
Question #6 - Been reading about a circulation pump. If I go with one would use 12v DC from Ebay. I've search for this but haven't read what I needed to know. I take this is to circulate the wort over the mash bag, Correct? I Plan on making a stainless steel cradle to support the grain bag above the element. Do I need to build a spray tree to flow wort over the bag? Couldn't find pictures. Do you also use the pump to mix wort during the boil cycle? Do I need to do something different if circulating during the boil?

This should get me started. Most likely more to follow.

Thanks much for your help and input.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Sort of surprised to see 100 looks and no input. Guess I'm going to wing this one.

 

[ccfoo242]

Question #1 - Any concerns on components?
Question #2 - Planning on installing element as low as possible to bottom of tank. Can it be too low? Figure on 2" above bottom.
Question #3 - Read conflicting answers to placement of PT100 sensor. I was thinking 3" off bottom. When I checked the levels of the tank, each gallon represents 3/4". in level. That would put the sensor at the 4 gallon line. Should this be different?
Question #4 - I'm also installing a thermometer. Should it be at the same level as the PT100 sensor?
Question #5 - Should I have any concerns with the tank having a bottom drain? If I add a circulation pump it would draw from the drain.
Question #6 - Been reading about a circulation pump. If I go with one would use 12v DC from Ebay. I've search for this but haven't read what I needed to know. I take this is to circulate the wort over the mash bag, Correct? I Plan on making a stainless steel cradle to support the grain bag above the element. Do I need to build a spray tree to flow wort over the bag? Couldn't find pictures. Do you also use the pump to mix wort during the boil cycle? Do I need to do something different if circulating during the boil?

I'll try to answer what I can but I still have no practical experience with this.

#1 - Components look good.
#3 - From what I've read it's probably best to put the temp probe inline just after the ball valve or after the pump.
#4 - A thermometer near the center of your mash could help verify that the PID is keeping the mash temp at the proper temp.
#5 - seems like bottom drain would be best.
#6 - I think like sparging as long as there's a few inches of wort on top of the grain bed you should be OK. But BIAB may have it's own issues that others could address.

 

[sillbeer]

I'm curious about the element placement as well. I'm think an inch off the bottom will be good.

Where did you get that bucket and what was it's purpose? I like it!

 

[hio3791]

Question #1 - Any concerns on components?
Question #2 - Planning on installing element as low as possible to bottom of tank. Can it be too low? Figure on 2" above bottom.
Question #3 - Read conflicting answers to placement of PT100 sensor. I was thinking 3" off bottom. When I checked the levels of the tank, each gallon represents 3/4". in level. That would put the sensor at the 4 gallon line. Should this be different?
Question #4 - I'm also installing a thermometer. Should it be at the same level as the PT100 sensor?
Question #5 - Should I have any concerns with the tank having a bottom drain? If I add a circulation pump it would draw from the drain.
Question #6 - Been reading about a circulation pump. If I go with one would use 12v DC from Ebay. I've search for this but haven't read what I needed to know. I take this is to circulate the wort over the mash bag, Correct? I Plan on making a stainless steel cradle to support the grain bag above the element. Do I need to build a spray tree to flow wort over the bag? Couldn't find pictures. Do you also use the pump to mix wort during the boil cycle? Do I need to do something different if circulating during the boil?

I built a similar controller 2yrs ago using the same schematics.

1. No concerns.
2. I placed mine 1 3/4 inch off the bottom. No issues.
3. I placed the sensor at the same height as the element, 45 degrees to the right. No issues. If I were to do it again, I would tee it off the valve.
4. I didn't install a thermometer. You really don't need one having a sensor. If you decide to tee off the sensor off the valve then you wouldn't have a temperature reading during the mash unless you recirculated.
5. Bottom draining is awesome. eKettles make it possible. Go for it.
6. I can't advice you on DC pumps as I have a SS Chugger. I believe it's choice over function.
7. With BIAB, there's no need for a spray arm. They're more useful in fly sparging. Keep it simple and run s hose.

Given the shape of your kettle, you may have greater temperature stratification than cylindrical ones. As long as you recirculate before/during the mash to equalize the temperature, you should be fine. No worries about stratification during the boil.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[Bellybuster]

With that shape I think I'd go dual elements, one in each end. Your pot though.
This should make an awesome rig.
Unless it's already plumbed, think about your bottom drain idea. That would mean the pot would have to be raised....... Cancel, just scrolled up and see it's already plumbed.
Would be expensive but this would be awesome with a custom mesh basket from arbor fab

 

[Bigarcherynut]

The tub is a portable whirlpool. The circulating motor went out and the manufacturer did not support the product because it was too old. Was going in the trash and I happened to get it. Great find for me.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I built a similar controller 2yrs ago using the same schematics.

1. No concerns.
2. I placed mine 1 3/4 inch off the bottom. No issues.
3. I placed the sensor at the same height as the element, 45 degrees to the right. No issues. If I were to do it again, I would tee it off the valve.
4. I didn't install a thermometer. You really don't need one having a sensor. If you decide to tee off the sensor off the valve then you wouldn't have a temperature reading during the mash unless you recirculated.
5. Bottom draining is awesome. eKettles make it possible. Go for it.
6. I can't advice you on DC pumps as I have a SS Chugger. I believe it's choice over function.
7. With BIAB, there's no need for a spray arm. They're more useful in fly sparging. Keep it simple and run s hose.

Given the shape of your kettle, you may have greater temperature stratification than cylindrical ones. As long as you recirculate before/during the mash to equalize the temperature, you should be fine. No worries about stratification during the boil.

Hope that helps a little.

Thanks much for the input. The more reading I've done I think I will add a pump. For the sensor, I'm adding aT now so I can add the pump and also install the probe after the pump. I'm still adding a 1/2" welddless tap for it on the tank and plug it. May also add the thermometer just because I have one. By the input I received and the shape of the tank circulating may be necessary.

So does the circulating line have to be special or just a poly hose over the side of the tank?

Thanks again.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

With that shape I think I'd go dual elements, one in each end. Your pot though.
This should make an awesome rig.
Unless it's already plumbed, think about your bottom drain idea. That would mean the pot would have to be raised....... Cancel, just scrolled up and see it's already plumbed.
Would be expensive but this would be awesome with a custom mesh basket from arbor fab

Thanks for helping. I was wondering too about the element, size and location. Hoping the 4500 watt well bed big enough and by circulating keep the temp even throughout. Adding another element would require me adding larger line and GFCI. Thanks for your concern. Hoping the single works.

Can you explain what the mesh basket is? Would that replaced the cloth mash bag?

Thank you also.
Getting excited to get building. Almost all the parts are here.

 

[Bellybuster]

the mesh basket I speak of is from Arborfab, they are really expensive but sure would be a cool setup for your "pot"

 

[Bigarcherynut]

the mesh basket I speak of is from Arborfab, they are really expensive but sure would be a cool setup for your "pot"

Nice but as you say just a little pricey compared to making a bag from voile. It would be sweet but out of the picture for now.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[hio3791]

Thanks much for the input. The more reading I've done I think I will add a pump. For the sensor, I'm adding aT now so I can add the pump and also install the probe after the pump. I'm still adding a 1/2" welddless tap for it on the tank and plug it. May also add the thermometer just because I have one. By the input I received and the shape of the tank circulating may be necessary.

So does the circulating line have to be special or just a poly hose over the side of the tank?

Thanks again.

My pleasure. With a 20 gal capacity, I would recommend a pump.

As for recirculating, I recommend food grade silicone hoses as they're rated up to 500F. Nothing fancy, just rest the discharge end over the grain bed. Remember that since you're doing BIAB, there are no concerns with channeling or disturbing the grain bed.

Having said that, does the tub have a lid? You will loose considerable heat during the mash if the tub is open. You may also consider some kind of jacket for the tub itself to retain the heat better during the mash, unless you're planning to maintain the temperature some other way.

The geometry of the tub will present some challenges but nothing that can't be overcome.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

My pleasure. With a 20 gal capacity, I would recommend a pump.

As for recirculating, I recommend food grade silicone hoses as they're rated up to 500F. Nothing fancy, just rest the discharge end over the grain bed. Remember that since you're doing BIAB, there are no concerns with channeling or disturbing the grain bed.

Having said that, does the tub have a lid? You will loose considerable heat during the mash if the tub is open. You may also consider some kind of jacket for the tub itself to retain the heat better during the mash, unless you're planning to maintain the temperature some other way.

The geometry of the tub will present some challenges but nothing that can't be overcome.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks much for the input. I have decide to add a pump. I'm starting with the inexpensive 12v DC model. I can always upgrade if needed but this should help with the temperature in the tank. As some have mentioned I'm installing the controller's probe in the pump line and also will add the weldless fitting and thermometer to the tank so I can monitor temp when not boiling.

I'm going with just one valve from the bottom drain. I don't see a need for a valve before the pump but if anyone disagrees let me know if I'm missing something. The piping from the bottom drain will be a nipple to a T which one side of the T will go to a valve for draining into the fermenter. The other outlet of the T will nipple into another T which will have the controller probe in one opening and the other will go to the pump. Being the pump will be at the base of the tank and the ouput line will go up over the tank I don't see a need for a valve before the pump. Any time I turn the pump on wort will flow. Really see no reason for a valve.

I just found something today that may work for a lid and also thinking of making an insulated blacnket to wrap around the tub for during the mash process.

Almost have all the parts for the system. Picked up a stainless steel hood fan off of Craigslist for $10 and adding an inline fan to it. Should handle any moisture issues from the boiling process.

Getting Close!

Thanks again to everyone.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

Bottom drain is awesome, but since you will be boiling in this vessel, as well as mash, you may want to consider a side bulkhead and valve so you can draw from the side after the boil and leave the hot break behind

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Bottom drain is awesome, but since you will be boiling in this vessel, as well as mash, you may want to consider a side bulkhead and valve so you can draw from the side after the boil and leave the hot break behind

I had to look up the term Hot Break to understand what this meant. I'm still new to brewing and don't have all the terms down.

I ordered all my stainless fittings last night before your post so I'm set for using the bottom drain for both my pump and draining to the fermentor. My question is, if I'm doing BIAB will I still create a large amount of hot break? If I rack to a secondary fermentor will this eliminate both hot and cold break?

I can always change it later if I find it an issue.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Bellybuster]

no worries about hot/cold break going into fermenter. Its fine

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

Looking forward to seeing this come together, should be interesting

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Progress is being made. Hoping to get some pics posted soon.

 

[neild5]

One question, if the controller probe is in the T and not in the pot will you be running the pump all the time? If there is no flow past the probe it will not tell the PID what the wort temp is. Cool looking pot!

 

[Bigarcherynut]

One question, if the controller probe is in the T and not in the pot will you be running the pump all the time? If there is no flow past the probe it will not tell the PID what the wort temp is. Cool looking pot!

Thanks. I hope it works out for me.

I was wondering that myself but because the probe is in the "T" I'll have to run the pump so I can control the boil. If it doesnt work out I added a weldless fitting and have a thermometer in it for now. I can always move it.

 

[hio3791]

You don't need the PID's thermometer to control the boil, it just needs to be connected to the PID so that it functions. As the wort reaches the boil, you can control the intensity by setting the PID to manual mode and control the duty cycle. In your case, the thermometer will control the PID in automatic mode during the mash, in which case, you would likely be recirculating if you're applying heat.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

You don't need the PID's thermometer to control the boil, it just needs to be connected to the PID so that it functions. As the wort reaches the boil, you can control the intensity by setting the PID to manual mode and control the duty cycle. In your case, the thermometer will control the PID in automatic mode during the mash, in which case, you would likely be recirculating if you're applying heat.

The controller I purchased is the SYL-2362 that I read about on here. I just downloaded the instruction manual seeing it didn't come with one. Hopefully the manual will be easy enough to figure out. I understand what you are saying. I'll have to see if this model allows me to control the way you mentioned.

Thanks much.