Starter with Imperial Harvest lager yeast - Over pitched?

[VVbrewery]

Brewed a German Pils my first lager. I know Imperial yeasts are supposed have enough cells to direct pitch but I figured this being a lager I'd make a 2 liter starter. It was on the stir plate about 24 hours and then cold crashed overnight, decanted and pitched with the wort at 57º. Fermentation was at 54º (Imperial says 50-60), vigorous and was at estimated FG in about 8 days. I then raised the temp to 65º for 5 days, cold crashed and kegged. It is slightly cloudy (I did forget the Whirfloc) and has this very noticeable strange kind of sweet off taste and smell. I'm not familiar with off tastes in beer so I'm not sure what this is and I've never had it in any of my ales. I put the keg back in the chest freezer at 65º for a week with the hopes it might give the yeast a chance to clean it up and that seems to have helped a bit just going by the smell. I've lagering it at 35º now for over 2 weeks but haven't had the chance to test it again.
I'm sure the off taste came from fermentation because there was no sign of it in the wort. Could I have over pitched by making the starter? Bad technique? Wrong fermentation temps?

 

[kh54s10]

Depends on who you listen to. All the yeast manufacturers say that their packs are sufficient to direct pitch for a 5 gallon batch. I doubt that you really over-pitched by any large percentage. In fact you probably under-pitched. The calculator that I use looks for 397 billion cells for a 5.25 gallon batch of 1.054 lager.

I ferment my lagers for 14 days, raise the temperature for 2 days, then lager for at least 2 weeks. I don't know if there is anything in the timing that would do it, but I don't think an over-pitch would cause that.

 

[couchsending]

It’s virtually impossible to overpitch a lager. Depending on a few things you actually might have underpitched.

Lager yeast in suspension tastes really weird. And they don’t like to flocc at all! What was your target water profile? Ca helps with flocculation.

Lager that bad boy as close to 30. As you can get for a minimum of 2 weeks, ideally 4.

I personally hate that lager strain. Used it three times before moving on.

 

[VVbrewery]

BeerSmith calculated the cell count at 464 billion and the OG was 1.052 so I guess underpitching probably isn't the problem.

The water profile (first time I've tried adjusting this too)
Ca 118
Mg 17
Sodium 11.5
Sulfate 184
Chloride 140
Bicarb 0

It's been lagering at about 34º for two weeks now but I'm brewing this weekend so I'll need the chest freezer for fermentation. I'll move it to the beer fridge for the rest of the time. I've got some brew buddies coming over in a week so we'll see what it's like then.

I personally hate that lager strain. Used it three times before moving on.

Figures that would be the one I picked. Any suggestions for the the next batch?

Thanks all for the advice

 

[couchsending]

BeerSmith calculated the cell count at 464 billion and the OG was 1.052 so I guess underpitching probably isn't the problem.

The water profile (first time I've tried adjusting this too)
Ca 118
Mg 17
Sodium 11.5
Sulfate 184
Chloride 140
Bicarb 0

It's been lagering at about 34º for two weeks now but I'm brewing this weekend so I'll need the chest freezer for fermentation. I'll move it to the beer fridge for the rest of the time. I've got some brew buddies coming over in a week so we'll see what it's like then.



Figures that would be the one I picked. Any suggestions for the the next batch?

Thanks all for the advice

It depends on what your targeted pitch rate is. I generally target more than 2.0.. there’s quite a few Homebrewers that target even 2.5m/ml/*plato.

Again the more the merrier.

Be careful when you go that high with CL and Ca. The two can clash at higher amounts.

I’m a big fan of White Labs German Lager X. It’s a vault strain but is in production now so you should see it at retailers soon. It’s the Andechs yeast and is one of the most popular commercial strains that Homebrewers barely have access too. Its a slowish starter but produces awesome soft maltier beers. Have had zero acetaldehyde or diacetyl issues with it. I ferment it at 48 to completion and slowly ramp down to 40 for a week then slowly down to 30 for 1-2 months.

I’ve also had good luck with the Wyeast Octoberfest blend lately. It ferments well at cold temps and clears really quickly. It produces some sulfur that disapates with conditioning. Made a Helles with this back in August and was blown away how fast it dropped bright and conditioned. 2 weeks and it was tasting great. I left it for 4 more and the sulfur had pretty much disappeared by then.

 

[user 337943]

Brewed a German Pils my first lager. I know Imperial yeasts are supposed have enough cells to direct pitch but I figured this being a lager I'd make a 2 liter starter. It was on the stir plate about 24 hours and then cold crashed overnight, decanted and pitched with the wort at 57º. Fermentation was at 54º (Imperial says 50-60), vigorous and was at estimated FG in about 8 days. I then raised the temp to 65º for 5 days, cold crashed and kegged. It is slightly cloudy (I did forget the Whirfloc) and has this very noticeable strange kind of sweet off taste and smell. I'm not familiar with off tastes in beer so I'm not sure what this is and I've never had it in any of my ales. I put the keg back in the chest freezer at 65º for a week with the hopes it might give the yeast a chance to clean it up and that seems to have helped a bit just going by the smell. I've lagering it at 35º now for over 2 weeks but haven't had the chance to test it again.
I'm sure the off taste came from fermentation because there was no sign of it in the wort. Could I have over pitched by making the starter? Bad technique? Wrong fermentation temps?

Hi if I may offer my suggestion to your question. The "sweet, off taste" from my experience has come from too much air getting into the fermenter. My brew book calls it, "tanens". I am always disappointed when I get this sour wine-type taste in my beer. To further prevent I just quit messing around with the fermentation process and did my best to get everything inside the fermenter during the first two days. Dry hops additions can be very beneficial but you need a ALL-IN-ONE brew kettle or an airtight carboy.