Starter vs. no starter

[JustLooking]

I mean what does Jamil know?

Funny stuff since most of the quotes I use to back up by opinion come from a book co-authored by Jamil. :cross:



And I think they pretty well cover "why WOULDN'T you make a starter with liquid yeast?"

 

[JustLooking]

JustLooking - I respect that you have your opinion, but feel you should dig in a little deeper into the brewing microbiology of yeast.

Hey Johnny. The truth is that I don’t think that you and I are that far apart in our opinions on this subject. I’ve read most of what you’ve linked to and try to follow the pitch rates they suggest. One place we may differ is my belief in the book YEAST (along with other sources) claim that with a fresh, laboratory culture you don’t need the same rate. And it’s not just taking their word for it. I came to a very similar conclusion a long time ago. My rule of thumb has been a pitch rate of .5 million when direct pitching will make excellent (award winning) beer. I pitch a fresh pack into four gallons of wort at less than 1.050, harvest and move on to a bigger beer.

The only other place we may disagree is that I don’t think that telling new brewers to make starters is a good idea. It’s like telling someone learning to drive to hit the tangents and accelerate out of the turns. How about, drive 5 mph under the limit, stay in the center of the road and don’t hit anything. I’d rather suggest that new homebrewers make smaller (again, either volume or gravity) beers and direct pitch. Once they have a good grasp of the basics (sanitation and technique) and when they understand why they’re doing what they’re doing. When they have the equipment and resources to make a proper size starter. Only when these things are understood should the option of a starter be made.

Sanitation, aeration, temperature control and racking are mandatory skills needed to make quality beer. They are the things you have to master to make the best beer possible. Pitch rate is just as important, but can be achieved without making a starter. Learn these other things, enter a competition to confirm that you've got a good grasp of them. Then move on to more advanced practices.

A lot of what I read in these threads would have people believe that making a starter is the holy grail of homebrewing. It’s not!

 

[KilhavenBrew]

You quoted these number from Yeast wrong.
Correction:
.5 L = 12 billion cells
1 L = 52 billion cells
1.5 L = 81 billion cells
2 L = 105 billion cells


Here is says a 2L starter has 105 Billion cells. That is about what a Wyeast pack already has. So making a starter of 1.5 L comes out as 81 Billion. Decreaseing your cell count.

I dont get how these numbers work. Are you saying ADDITIONAL cells? Beyond what you pitched in the starter?

 

[Sulli]

You quoted these number from Yeast wrong.
Correction:
.5 L = 12 billion cells
1 L = 52 billion cells
1.5 L = 81 billion cells
2 L = 105 billion cells

Here is says a 2L starter has 105 Billion cells. That is about what a Wyeast pack already has. So making a starter of 1.5 L comes out as 81 Billion. Decreaseing your cell count.

I dont get how these numbers work. Are you saying ADDITIONAL cells? Beyond what you pitched in the starter?

Yes, these numbers are the amount of additional cells produced.

 

[petey_c]

Well, I watched a couple of you tube videos on making starters. Now I want to make a stir plate. I got a 120 VAC muffin fan from work and an old HDD magnet. Now I just need to assemble the rest of the parts... A rotary fan dimmer, project box, etc.

 

[ACESFULL]

Well, I watched a couple of you tube videos on making starters. Now I want to make a stir plate. I got a 120 VAC muffin fan from work and an old HDD magnet. Now I just need to assemble the rest of the parts... A rotary fan dimmer, project box, etc.

Built one myself very easy to do and work great. But also dont forget the stir bar. :rockin:

 

[petey_c]

Yeah, I ordered an 1.5" X 5/16" bar today. Working mids tonight. Wife going to work tomorrow AM, kids off to skool. Probably off to the Shack/HD after I get home. The fan is rated for 14W and about 2.8 Krpm. Don't know how fancy/ghetto/redneck I wanna go.

 

[petey_c]

Well, after some trial and error (mostly error) I've come to a moderate success with the stir plate. Started the starter last eve and the pitcher I used had a slightly rounded bottom. The combination of that and a regular light dimmer to control a small 120 VAC muffin fan didn't fare well. The fan stopped sometime during the night. Changed the pitcher to one with a flatter bottom and found a "sweet spot" on the dimmer. It's been going good for about 2 hours now. 12 grams of Munton's "Gold" yeast in 1 quart of water with 1 cup of amber DME and a pinch of yeast nutrient. My kits arrived a little earlier today and I'll start tomorrow morning after my daughter leaves for school. That'll give me about 36 hours of starter. Cleaned out my 10 gallon pot and boiled some water in it. Cut a spigot into a 7.5 gallon (?) bucket I had and am leak testing it as I type. We'll see how this turns out in about 6 weeks....

 

[joshb_]

Both of you, please read this:
http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Thanks for the link...great read

 

[Butter]

Justlooking, I have to agree with you about learning the basics. I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

 

[pabloj13]

Justlooking, I have to agree with you about learning the basics. I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

Not again.

 

[g-star]

I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

Quite an authoritative statement for someone who has never tasted their own beer made with a starter.

 

[spenghali]

Of course it's not required, but there is scientific proof (weird concept right?) that you should use a starter.....

The choice is yours and yours alone.

 

[periwinkle1239]

I love these sorts of debates.

 

[kmk1012]

After reading the book "Yeast" I've started making starters. They are currently fermenting or lagering as we speak. Maybe I can join all this fun after some "research". I am using my temp controlled ferm chamber for the first time so my opinion may be slanted, too many variables to be consistant! Good luck with your discussion.

 

[Piratwolf]

After reading the book "Yeast" I've started making starters. They are currently fermenting or lagering as we speak. Maybe I can join all this fun after some "research". I am using my temp controlled ferm chamber for the first time so my opinion may be slanted, too many variables to be consistant! Good luck with your discussion.

While you won't be able to isolate which change contributes more, I predict that you'll be ecstatic with the results. HUGE improvement in my beers when I did both! In fact, I just posted in another thread that I dumped a pre-starter, pre-ferm-control beer last night. It was not enjoyable.

 

[petey_c]

Further adjustments are required for my stirrer. It stopped again last night. I'm now in the middle of my first 10 gallon batch (mini-mash). The starter looks nice and healthy. I'll take a SG reading before I pitch. This will also be my chance to see how my IC works with a larger batch.

 

[petey_c]

About 6+ gallons (started at 7 gal.) divided in half. Just pitched the starter and dry yeast (Not proofed. Went real old school.) Temps about .1°F difference, OG 1.05, Starter SG 1.012, kinda low I thought. I'll update when I see any activity. (Not that it matters...). Brew is AHS' London Pub Ale.

 

[Piratwolf]

About 6+ gallons (started at 7 gal.) divided in half. Just pitched the starter and dry yeast (Not proofed. Went real old school.) Temps about .1°F difference, OG 1.05, Starter SG 1.012, kinda low I thought. I'll update when I see any activity. (Not that it matters...). Brew is AHS' London Pub Ale.

Cool experiment. Be interested to see what you learn!

 

[petey_c]

The starter gravity was actually the "final". Since I didn't bother to take an OG. I started to see some airlock activity about an hour ago; about four hours after pitching.

 

[RyanDe680]

I think it comes down to this:

If you use a starter, it will make beer.

If you don't use a starter, it will make beer.

IMO, a starter will increase the quantity and quality of the yeast you are pitching. I've tried it with and without, it does help. It's not necessary no, but does help.

I do make an attempt to make a starter for nearly every beer I create.

 

[BigRob]

Is there a huge diff between:

1. Pitching starter at high krausen
2. Cold crashing starter and pitching slurry
3. Repitching washed yeast
4. Starter made from washed yeast
5. Using 2+ Vials/Packs of Liquid/Dry yeast

If by any reasonable calculation the cell counts are all identical? I mean it seems like the important bit is the pitch rate, moreso than anything else.

 

[1Mainebrew]

Right, pitching rate is most important. There are differences when you start pitching lager starters, but other than that, go for it as long as the cell count and health are good!

 

[Piratwolf]

Is there a huge diff between:


[*]Pitching starter at high krausen
[*]Cold crashing starter and pitching slurry
[*]Repitching washed yeast
[*]Starter made from washed yeast
[*]Using 2+ Vials/Packs of Liquid/Dry yeast


If by any reasonable calculation the cell counts are all identical? I mean it seems like the important bit is the pitch rate, moreso than anything else.

Yes. For me it's $$$$. At least when I think multiple packs/vials....

 

[johnbrain]

there's more to yeast than the white labs FAQ. indeed mr white himself fully contradicts this pitching rate in his own book, entitled: YEAST.

So even if the SG if over 1.060 it might NOT be necessary to use a starter with a WL yeast? I ask because I am preparing a recipe/brew day using WL002. 1.064 SG. I live in San Diego AND my supply shop is new, so I am assuming the vial is pretty damn fresh.

Thoughts?

 

[pabloj13]

So even if the SG if over 1.060 it might NOT be necessary to use a starter with a WL yeast? I ask because I am preparing a recipe/brew day using WL002. 1.064 SG. I live in San Diego AND my supply shop is new, so I am assuming the vial is pretty damn fresh.

Thoughts?

Making a starter is super easy. DO IT.

 

[johnbrain]

Bought a flask and some DME. I'm brewing Friday afternoon/evening. Should I prepare the started tonight or tomorrow? I've read everything from pitching at high krausen to 24-48 hours to pitching, then refrigerating to let it settle and pour off the extra wort etc.

Advice?

also:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing
b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?

THANKS! Having a blast preparing for brew day.

 

[johnnybrew]

Bought a flask and some DME. I'm brewing Friday afternoon/evening. Should I prepare the started tonight or tomorrow? I've read everything from pitching at high krausen to 24-48 hours to pitching, then refrigerating to let it settle and pour off the extra wort etc.

Advice?

also:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing
b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?

THANKS! Having a blast preparing for brew day.

I tend to prepare all of my starters with enough time to grow, chill, flocculate, decant and then pitch a slurry. I just do it out of habit, but you really don't need to do this for all beers, only lagers or other beers that have a delicate profile. Why? Because if you pitch the entire starter you toss in all of the lovely yeast, but also the fermented wort from the starter. This stuff could add an off-flavor.

I have pitched starters at high kraeusen and have had great results as well (smaller starters with darker beer). But, you really don't want to pitch the entire starter when you have a large starter.

To your other Qs:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing.
Nope, the heat will do the sanitizing. Just make sure your flask is properly cleaned.

b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
The DME will dissolve regardless, don't sweat it. Add it to warm water and swirl the flask. After a 15 min boil it will a-ok.

c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?
I do. I dip the yeast package (tube or smack pack) in Star San and make sure that anything that touches the packet or the flask AFTER the boil has been sanitized.

A few more thoughts:

Remember, the intention of a starter is to create yeast, not make beer. So don't worry about adding hops - it's not necessary. In fact, hop oils will end up inhibiting yeast growth.

Make a starter that has an SG of about 1.040.

Read this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

Hope this helped. Happy brewing.

 

[johnbrain]

Thanks. Went ahead and sanitized flask then or the foil piece in the sanitizer. Sounds like overkill. Watched the boil for no boil over. It cooled fast so I didn't want to over cool it.

Quite relaxing. Btw White Labs English Ale flocculates so quickly in a flask you can watch it happen. Quite mesmerizing

 

[petey_c]

I've had the starter vs. no starter bottles in the kitchen fridge for about a week now. The reason I haven't tried them is because they're 750 ml. bottles. I usually anticipate having them after I'm done cooking and eating dinner. But by then, four beers would be too much. That and my taste buds' abilities would be compromised.

 

[tasteslikechicken]

Like most things in homebrewing I expect far too much energy is spent imitating those who brew a million barrels a year (give or take an order of magnitude).

The reasons why commercial brewers pitch at the rate they do is probably more dependent on making beer at a certain rate given the capital invested in the brewery than on truly optimizing the enjoyment of the finished product.

But I'd love to hear the results of numerous double blind tested split batches where the wort was pitched too low, too high, or just right. Whatever that may be.

 

[studmonk3y]

Well, after some trial and error (mostly error) I've come to a moderate success with the stir plate. Started the starter last eve and the pitcher I used had a slightly rounded bottom. The combination of that and a regular light dimmer to control a small 120 VAC muffin fan didn't fare well. The fan stopped sometime during the night. Changed the pitcher to one with a flatter bottom and found a "sweet spot" on the dimmer. It's been going good for about 2 hours now. 12 grams of Munton's "Gold" yeast in 1 quart of water with 1 cup of amber DME and a pinch of yeast nutrient. My kits arrived a little earlier today and I'll start tomorrow morning after my daughter leaves for school. That'll give me about 36 hours of starter. Cleaned out my 10 gallon pot and boiled some water in it. Cut a spigot into a 7.5 gallon (?) bucket I had and am leak testing it as I type. We'll see how this turns out in about 6 weeks....

I find it funny that after all this debate, petey_c is making a starter on his new stir plate...with dry yeast.

Pete, I'm glad you're making starters (I'm in that camp), but they're unnecessary for dry yeast. You want to proof dry yeast in water. You only make starters for liquid yeast.

 

[Darwin18]

I've had the starter vs. no starter bottles in the kitchen fridge for about a week now. The reason I haven't tried them is because they're 750 ml. bottles. I usually anticipate having them after I'm done cooking and eating dinner. But by then, four beers would be too much. That and my taste buds' abilities would be compromised.

Petey if you made your starter with dry yeast, you've missed the point and wasted your time. Liquid yeasts benefit from starters. Dry yeasts already have the cell count most 5G batches require...

 

[petey_c]

studmonk3y/darwin18, yep, I found that after I made my first Notty starter. One of those classic Homer Simpson moments. On the second one I think I was on autopilot, "Oh schist, I'm gonna brew tomorrow. I'd better get that starter started." I did however, notice a big difference when using the Munton's dry yeast starter. (My actual experiment.) The Notty's are 11g. I'll drink this experiment and duplicate it with LIQUID yeast (emphasis added for my benefit) next time. Thanks, Pete

 

[Hauntedyards]

So the smack packs aren't liquid yeast... but dry yeast with the water equivalent of nutrient in the bag with it. That's why the cell count is so high after swelling? and you can get away without a starter on these with an OG below 1.060 I assume...

I think this thread just saved me time I would have wasted on a starter... lol

 

[janivar123]

Huh no smack pack is liquid yeast
Check the age and decide if a starter is needed(it probably is)

BTW danstar(notty)recomend 1gram per litre now for average gravety beer

 

[homebrewdad]

Like most things in homebrewing I expect far too much energy is spent imitating those who brew a million barrels a year (give or take an order of magnitude).

The reasons why commercial brewers pitch at the rate they do is probably more dependent on making beer at a certain rate given the capital invested in the brewery than on truly optimizing the enjoyment of the finished product.

But I'd love to hear the results of numerous double blind tested split batches where the wort was pitched too low, too high, or just right. Whatever that may be.

Do a forum search. Do a Google search. There are tons of these reports - both from homebrewers and from beer pros.

Lower pitching rates typically result in weaker fermentations and more off flavors.

Note that some styles may actually benefit from underpitching - certain Belgian beers can be intentionally done this way to pick up some of the varian flavors that would be considered flaws in other beers.

 

[periwinkle1239]

So the smack packs aren't liquid yeast... but dry yeast with the water equivalent of nutrient in the bag with it. That's why the cell count is so high after swelling? and you can get away without a starter on these with an OG below 1.060 I assume...

I think this thread just saved me time I would have wasted on a starter... lol

I don't know that any of this is accurate. Smack packs are liquid yeast as far as I know. And I would make a starter regardless of the gravity, even if it is a low gravity brew. I used to not make starters with low gravity beers and now I do and I have noticed a difference in the quality of flavor. In short the beers turn out better with starters.

And last, in my opinion there is very little time associated with making a starter.

Just chiming in...

 

[BigRob]

Smack packs are liquid yeast, the little packet inside just gets them going a little, the swelling of the package is merely an indicator that the yeast are not DOA

 

[Hauntedyards]

Smack packs are liquid yeast, the little packet inside just gets them going a little, the swelling of the package is merely an indicator that the yeast are not DOA

Weird. I'd swear it rattled when I shook it. I would think though that a neglected starter may do more harm to the concentration of yeast in a smack pack than good? It would be better to make a starter go dormant at the peak of fermentation than to let it die off no? That slurry must be better than a burned out one?

I'm just learning about this myself.