Starter kit indecision. Advice (and patience) appreciated!

[gerald8_kop]

Evening all!

I'm a big beer drinker that has long since flirted with the idea of giving my own thing a try but it's only recently that I found myself idly reading forums/articles and watching youtube videos, since which I've found myself completely absorbed and more than a little eager to dive right in.

I shall keep stuff simple initially and get the measure of some brewkits before upping the ante and have narrowed my beginners gear down to these two kits (a kit would be most ideal as I will get it delivered to my parents - I live in a flat making receipt of deliveries a pain so an all in one job is fairer on them):

1. https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/home-brew-starter-kit/
2. https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/30-litre-fermenting-bucket/

Or

1. http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk...arter-kit-includes-33lt-fermenters-p-968.html

I was set on the MaltMiller job with an additional FV because it means I can experiment with a vessel that has a tap and one without to see what I prefer particularly when it comes to bottling/sanitation/secondary fermentation, and because it comes with some hard to find (EU) StarSan.

Before pulling the trigger however I then saw the homebrewcompany version. Not much between the two I know except that the latter is 33L instead of 30, cheaper and that their FVs are without a tap. I will mostly be brewing darkgrained stuff I suspect so 30 is the lowest I'd like to go down to bearing in mind blowouts.

Sorry if longwinded but any thoughts? Am I overlooking or overthinking anything?

Thanks in advance

 

[grampamark]

The kits in the links cover the cold side (fermentation and bottling) but you need to consider the hot side (preparing the wort). That requires a kettle of at least 5gal (19L) and a heat source.

Are you planning to use extract kits or is all grain brewing in your future? Some additional information about your intentions would be helpful.

 

[mongoose33]

A couple of things:

First, you don't need to do secondary fermentation. It's an outmoded approach that almost nobody does any more. The only exceptions are if you have to do some long-term aging of beer, or need to do some special type of infusion. Don't focus on that--it's not important.

Second, I've used fermenters with and without a spigot (tap). No way i would go back to any system without one. Get a fermenter with a spigot/tap.


One more thing you should make sure you do: enjoy the journey. Homebrewing is supposed to be fun. Let it be that. And welcome!

 

[Immocles]

+1 to spigots. I regret not having one on my bubbler

 

[gerald8_kop]

A couple of things:

First, you don't need to do secondary fermentation. It's an outmoded approach that almost nobody does any more. The only exceptions are if you have to do some long-term aging of beer, or need to do some special type of infusion. Don't focus on that--it's not important.

Second, I've used fermenters with and without a spigot (tap). No way i would go back to any system without one. Get a fermenter with a spigot/tap.


One more thing you should make sure you do: enjoy the journey. Homebrewing is supposed to be fun. Let it be that. And welcome!

Excellent, thanks alot.

Regards secondary fermentation it was more that I know some take issue with the sediment created and so I thought a secondary FV could be used as a 'cleaner' bottling vessel and for batch priming. Encouraging to read that the extra step/increased risk of infection isn't necessary in your eyes however!

 

[mongoose33]

Excellent, thanks alot.

Regards secondary fermentation it was more that I know some take issue with the sediment created and so I thought a secondary FV could be used as a 'cleaner' bottling vessel and for batch priming. Encouraging to read that the extra step/increased risk of infection isn't necessary in your eyes however!

Nor in almost anyone else's eyes.

Using a secondary won't make you better beer. What it will do is give you one more opportunity to expose your now-fermented beer to oxygen and oxidation, with predictable and undesirable results.

Using a secondary will, however, cost you more money for equipment, provide something extra to clean and sanitize, and make the brew process more complicated to no particular advantage, so it has all that going for it.

 

[Saunassa]

Spigot are nice but I only have it on my bottling bucket. Reason being is my daughter likes to turn things and dont want 5 gallons of beer on the floor.
that being said you could use your second bucket as a bottling one with the addition of a spigot. That or end up like me with two beers fermenting at the same time.

 

[IslandLizard]

The HomebrewCo's kit includes a metal wing capper (for bottles), not plastic. Many people are fine with and use the plastic ones, I prefer the feel and solidness of a metal capper over plastic. YMMV.

Sanitizing:
Either company sells Starsan, but none of the larger sizes seem to be in stock.
Of the various sizes, 4 oz, 8oz, 16oz, 32oz, the larger sizes, like pint or quart, give you most product for the money. Again , if they only had them in stock...
4 oz for £9 is surely pushing it... yowsers!

A working solution of Starsan can be used/reused for weeks, months even. Especially when mixed with RO or distilled water and kept clean. Don't stick dirty pieces in there, rinse, wash well, rinse again, then Starsan. It still works fine when cloudy as long as the pH remains under 3. Test with a small piece of a multi-range pH strip/roll. I had a 32oz bottle lasting for almost 9 years.

You also don't need to make a big bucket full of it either. A spray bottle and a small 1 gallon container half full is plenty. Mop surfaces with a small dedicated Starsaned washcloth. That 4 oz bottle can last a year or longer that way. The concentrate darkens with age a little, but with no adverse effects on its function.

Fermenters:
If you want to ferment 2 batches at the same time (or staggered) you'll need 2 buckets. Each will be occupied for 2-3 weeks to ferment out, condition, and clarify.
30 or 33 liters is fine. A typical batch is 21 liters, that leaves 9 or 12 liters (a third) for headspace, plenty for most if not all fermentations.

Cleaning:
For brewery equipment cleaning use regular washing soda (sodium carbonate) or generic "Oxiclean" (~50% sodium percarbonate / 50% washing soda).

If you want/need extra oomph, add some TSP or TSP/90 to it (10-30%), basically creating homemade PBW at a fraction of the shocker sticker price. A tablespoon of the mixture is plenty for a gallon (or 2) of cleaner. If not too dirty, it keeps and can be reused for weeks, but the oxygen "Oxiclean" adds, dissipates within hours.
No need to buy any pricey proprietary cleansers.

BarKeepers Friend (BKF) a light, non-scratching scouring powder is great for cleaning stainless.

Bottling:
I guess you could bottle directly from the fermenter, but most of us prefer a bottling bucket to bottle. Easier to mix the priming sugar into it and keeping the bottles trub free, only transferring clear beer. You would need a piece of vinyl tubing between the spigot and the bottling wand. Is that included? Or a longer piece (~3 feet) if transferring to a bottling bucket.

 

[RM-MN]

Fermenters:
If you want to ferment 2 batches at the same time (or staggered) you'll need 2 buckets. Each will be occupied for 2-3 weeks to ferment out, condition, and clarify.
30 or 33 liters is fine. A typical batch is 21 liters, that leaves 9 or 12 liters (a third) for headspace, plenty for most if not all fermentations.

If you think you want to brew 2 batches at a time, make plans now to add more fermenters. I find that I brew when time allows and sometime 2 batches aren't enough. I now have 5 ferments and occasionally have all of them filled at once. That allows me to let them set until a lot of the suspended yeast has settled so I don't put that into my bottles.

Bottling:
I guess you could bottle directly from the fermenter, but most of us prefer a bottling bucket to bottle. Easier to mix the priming sugar into it and keeping the bottles trub free, only transferring clear beer. You would need a piece of vinyl tubing between the spigot and the bottling wand. Is that included? Or a longer piece (~3 feet) if transferring to a bottling bucket.

Good advice. Stirring priming sugar into a fermenter will almost certainly stir up trub. You waited patiently for that trub to settle out, why stir it up and put it in your bottles. Siphon the beer to a bottling bucket to incorporate the priming sugar. Leave the trub behind.

 

[gerald8_kop]

Excellent stuff all - much appreciated (particularly IslandLizard for so much detail).

Well I think it makes sense to stick with my initial instinct as then I have a bit more flexibility and the chance to form my own preferences. To make the first batch as simplistic as possible I imagine I'll use tablets for carbonation and then priming sugar in the second for the sake of comparison.

If using a second vessel for bottling, should the brew be left for an amount of time to settle once more post-siphoning or is it good to go?

 

[RM-MN]

Excellent stuff all - much appreciated (particularly IslandLizard for so much detail).

Well I think it makes sense to stick with my initial instinct as then I have a bit more flexibility and the chance to form my own preferences. To make the first batch as simplistic as possible I imagine I'll use tablets for carbonation and then priming sugar in the second for the sake of comparison.

If using a second vessel for bottling, should the brew be left for an amount of time to settle once more post-siphoning or is it good to go?

i try to get as much beer into the bottling bucket as possible so I sometimes suck up a little trub as I go for the last of it. That seems to settle out in the bottling bucket pretty quickly so it stays there. I don't wait more than a few minutes to start the bottling.

 

[IslandLizard]

If using a second vessel for bottling, should the brew be left for an amount of time to settle once more post-siphoning or is it good to go?

Trub:
When active fermentation comes to an end, usually a week to 2 weeks after pitching yeast, all the yeast and trub in suspension will settle out on the bottom of your bucket, leaving clear beer on top. That takes a week or so, depending on the yeast used, some yeasts settle out quicker than others. All that time the bucket remains sealed, the CO2 locked in the headspace prevents your beer from oxidizing due to air exposure, leave the lid on.

Spigots:
If you're using a fermenter with a spigot, like the Malt Miller one, when ready to bottle, you'd drain the clear beer into a 2nd bucket with a spigot (your bottling bucket), leaving all or most of the trub that lies on the bottom behind. The spigot is placed a good inch above the bottom of the bucket, thus allowing for an inch of trub. That should be plenty for most brews. To transfer the (clear) beer to a bottling bucket, you'd need a 3-4' piece of vinyl hose/tubing attached to the spigot, to avoid splashing into the receiving bucket. Air/oxygen is the enemy of beer once fermentation has started. That piece of tubing should be just wide enough to fit the spigot, of course.
Make sure to get a length of that tubing (hardware store or brew store) if you want to use a bottling bucket.

With spigots there is no need for a racking cane or siphon. As @mongoose33 pointed out, spigots on buckets make brew life easier.

From the image it looks that HomebrewCo's equipment kit buckets don't appear to have spigots. Maybe you can request them as an "upgrade" upon ordering for extra $, and that may or may not get what you want.
They do include some sort of siphon.
Also included in that kit is a bottle of "cleaner/sterilizer." Those proprietary "magical" cleaners are pretty useless as I've pointed out before.

Besides, there is no such thing as a "sterilizer" in homebrewing, it's a false claim. Cleaning and sanitizing are 2 different processes using different chemicals and procedures. Starsan is by far the easiest sanitizer to use, lasts for months, and has proven to work. Glad Malt Miller is sensible to include a bottle of it, alas a small one, but good to start out.

 

[IslandLizard]

This was asked before, what are you going to boil your wort in? And how are you heating it?

 

[gerald8_kop]

This was asked before, what are you going to boil your wort in? And how are you heating it?

I'm just going to use a beerkit (I erroneously called it a brewkit in my opening post) so that the mashing stage is already done for me in an attempt to make my first attempts fairly plain sailing. A kettle will be on my shopping list for sure if all goes well but I dont want to run before I can walk incase my new hobby proves not take off as well as I'd like

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm just going to use a beerkit (I erroneously called it a brewkit in my opening post) so that the mashing stage is already done for me in an attempt to make my first attempts fairly plain sailing. A kettle will be on my shopping list for sure if all goes well but I dont want to run before I can walk incase my new hobby proves not take off as well as I'd like

Extract kits, yes.

Extracts are condensed (LME) or dried (DME) wort. They originated as (large) all grain batches at the maltster where they were mashed, lautered, boiled, then condensed (LME) or even dried (DME).

You still need to reconstitute (dissolve) the extracts, and boil (some) with hops. Then chill, add to your fermenter and pitch yeast.

Although there are pre-hopped extracts, that should not be boiled, merely dissolved, I'd stay well away from all of those unless one's bound to live in a prison.

 

[gerald8_kop]

Ah, that's disheartening because it is deffo the pre-hopped affairs that I plan to begin with. Baby steps and all that. A coopers or St Peters type job.

https://www.brewbitz.com/collections/stouts-and-porters-beer-kits/products/st-peters-cream-stout

At least in doing so I will also appreciate the difference in quality when going all/part grain.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ah, that's disheartening because it is deffo the pre-hopped affairs that I plan to begin with. Baby steps and all that. A coopers or St Peters type job.

https://www.brewbitz.com/collections/stouts-and-porters-beer-kits/products/st-peters-cream-stout

At least in doing so I will also appreciate the difference in quality when going all/part grain.

DME is the most stable of the 2 extract options (DME vs. LME).
When well packaged, stored cool and dry, it can last probably 10 years without staling (I have proof of that). LME is a lot more susceptible to change (and not for the better). Old, stale LME really tastes bad and can't make good beer.

Pre-hopped extracts are all LME. In those, the hop oils, flavor, and aroma compounds are condensed with the wort, then packaged and stored. This process doesn't do flavor and aroma any favors.

If you drink and enjoy your local pub's Best Bitter, Pale Ale, Stout, etc. or any commercially produced craft beer, with some diligence you can get quite close to those, possibly surpass some, even many, with homebrew. Even when brewed from fresh malt extracts instead of all-grain, those beers can be truly sublime.

On the other side, a beer made (that's correct, it's not brewed) from an pre-hopped extract is about as far removed from that experience as one can get. Many rely on adding "boosters, extenders, or enhancers" (read: "plain sugar" for all of these) to raise the alcohol % but doesn't do squat for flavor or body, it actually dilutes them. Yeah, you can call it beer, but not even a very drinkable, let stand an enjoyable one. I'm willing to bet, a properly brewed (non-prehopped) extract beer would make you a lot more proud of your efforts.

==> You can easily do a partial boil with all (non-prehopped) extract plus a few ounces of hops (pellets) in a 2 gallon pot on the stove, and dilute to 5.5 gallons (21 liters) in your fermenter, and make really good beer that way. If you're interested in details on process to make that happen, read around here, on the extract forum, or perhaps ask for pointers...

Having a larger pot/kettle (4-5 gallon) and commensurating heating source will surely give you more "brew space" and is definitely needed if you were doing partial mash, or (smaller batches) of all grain.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm just going to use a beerkit (I erroneously called it a brewkit in my opening post) so that the mashing stage is already done for me in an attempt to make my first attempts fairly plain sailing. A kettle will be on my shopping list for sure if all goes well but I dont want to run before I can walk incase my new hobby proves not take off as well as I'd like

This ^ is what I usually advise new brewers to do, so good on you. The more variables you introduce, the more opportunity for something to go awry, and then the problem is figuring out what it was that happened. Keeping it simple is a smart place to start.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm a big beer drinker...

I'm quite sure you want to drink something decent while at it...

Here's a recent (still ongoing) thread on a simple extract batch using real hops.

• 1 can of (unhopped) malt extract plus 1 oz of (Cascade) hops. That's for 2.5 gallons.
• For 5 gallons, double the ingredients.
• Substitute with a lighter (pale) extract if you don't care for (darker) amber ales.
• Or substitute with a dark extract for a Stout or Porter. Use 1 oz of East Kent Goldings, Fuggles, Willamette, or Northern Brewer for hops when brewing such, not Cascade.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/brewed-an-extract-smash.671159/#post-8698739

 

[Imhoppy]

+1 to spigots. I regret not having one on my bubbler

Same here. Dealing with a siphon is just one more issue (i.e., equipment, sanitizing, cleaning, replacing when it breaks, etc.) to get in the way and slow things down. Although at times I still use my siphon but only when my fermenters with spigots are all filled up. Spigots all the way! [emoji481]

 

[Saunassa]

DME is the most stable of the 2 extract options (DME vs. LME).
When well packaged, stored cool and dry, it can last probably 10 years without staling (I have proof of that). LME is a lot more susceptible to change (and not for the better). Old, stale LME really tastes bad and can't make good beer.

Pre-hopped extracts are all LME. In those, the hop oils, flavor, and aroma compounds are condensed with the wort, then packaged and stored. This process doesn't do flavor and aroma any favors.

If you drink and enjoy your local pub's Best Bitter, Pale Ale, Stout, etc. or any commercially produced craft beer, with some diligence you can get quite close to those, possibly surpass some, even many, with homebrew. Even when brewed from fresh malt extracts instead of all-grain, those beers can be truly sublime.

On the other side, a beer made (that's correct, it's not brewed) from an pre-hopped extract is about as far removed from that experience as one can get. Many rely on adding "boosters, extenders, or enhancers" (read: "plain sugar" for all of these) to raise the alcohol % but doesn't do squat for flavor or body, it actually dilutes them. Yeah, you can call it beer, but not even a very drinkable, let stand an enjoyable one. I'm willing to bet, a properly brewed (non-prehopped) extract beer would make you a lot more proud of your efforts.

==> You can easily do a partial boil with all (non-prehopped) extract plus a few ounces of hops (pellets) in a 2 gallon pot on the stove, and dilute to 5.5 gallons (21 liters) in your fermenter, and make really good beer that way. If you're interested in details on process to make that happen, read around here, on the extract forum, or perhaps ask for pointers...

Having a larger pot/kettle (4-5 gallon) and commensurating heating source will surely give you more "brew space" and is definitely needed if you were doing partial mash, or (smaller batches) of all grain.

If you up the hops you can get away with a 15 minute boil when brewing an extract beer. One of my favorite pale ales uses 1 oz Amarillo at 15, ounce Cascade at 10 and ounce Mosaic at flame out for a 3 gallon batch.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you up the hops you can get away with a 15 minute boil when brewing an extract beer. One of my favorite pale ales uses 1 oz Amarillo at 15, ounce Cascade at 10 and ounce Mosaic at flame out for a 3 gallon batch.

Absolutely, there's no need to boil longer than 10-15' if you up the dose of hops (like double it). Plus... you retain a lot more flavor from that bittering charge, exactly like one would get from a late boil hop.

Yup, that sounds like a yummy citrusy orange-grapefruit everyday Pale Ale. Such a wonderful combination of hops!

@gerald8_kop Pay attention to this, there are 100s of hops you can choose from, to be used just by themselves or in endless combinations. That beats pre-hopped cans, which are very linear with very little hop character.

 

[Saunassa]

Absolutely, there's no need to boil longer than 10-15' if you up the dose of hops (like double it). Plus... you retain a lot more flavor from that bittering charge, exactly like one would get from a late boil hop.

Yup, that sounds like a yummy citrusy orange-grapefruit everyday Pale Ale. Such a wonderful combination of hops!

What is amazing it is from an extract kit and I have had quite a few pale ales and often prefer my extract kit made one. Lots of flavor and not super bitter.
I would recommend this kit to anyone starting to brew. Easily made on a stove top in large stock pot.
Since you appear to be in the UK here is the recipe.

 

[NGD]

@IslandLizard Terrible advice on a bucket with a spigot for your first time!! OP will miss out on having the racking cane fall constantly, spilling beer everywhere, sucking up large volumes of trub, dirty looks from the SO for making a huge mess and having a room dedicated to smelling like the old beer you spilled but missed when cleaning. The kind of stuff that puts hair on your chest after it recedes from your head.

Spigots all the way bud!

 

[dwhite60]

For a first brew I see nothing wrong with a kit in a can. Go for it. It will be easy, require less equipment and time, and offer the highest chance of success in making something drinkable. I had probably been brewing five years and one day picked up a Munton's Brown Ale kit in a can. Figured I had to make at least one. I was at least pleased with the results. Certainly wasn't GREAT beer but it was GOOD beer.

Keep in mind though that the quality you end up with can be better with basic malt extract, hops, and boiling it yourself.

Homebrewing can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be.

Someone once told me, there are a million things you can do to a car for just a few dollars but then you have a car costing a few million dollars.

Go for it and have fun!

All the Best,
D. White

 

[dwhite60]

Interesting in that most all the Cooper's and Munton's beer kits in a can get at least three star reviews on Amazon.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[IslandLizard]

Interesting in that most all the Cooper's and Munton's beer kits in a can get at least three star reviews on Amazon.

All the Best,
D. White

Oh, dear...

 

[gerald8_kop]

For a first brew I see nothing wrong with a kit in a can. Go for it. It will be easy, require less equipment and time, and offer the highest chance of success in making something drinkable. I had probably been brewing five years and one day picked up a Munton's Brown Ale kit in a can. Figured I had to make at least one. I was at least pleased with the results. Certainly wasn't GREAT beer but it was GOOD beer.

Keep in mind though that the quality you end up with can be better with basic malt extract, hops, and boiling it yourself.

Homebrewing can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be.

Someone once told me, there are a million things you can do to a car for just a few dollars but then you have a car costing a few million dollars.

Go for it and have fun!

All the Best,
D. White

Yeah I'm pretty set on beginning with a kit for the reasons already mentioned, that it seems a reasonable starting point and limits any room for newbie errors. Probably makes me a heathen to 'real' homebrew enthusiasts but it seems sensible to me and assuming this doesnt transpire to be a flash in the pan hobby I will have plenty of time to wade into deeper waters! The kits cannot to be too bad anyhow as there's a 44 page thread below with lots of recipes and positive soundings - think I will throw some extra dark malt extract and treacle in for good measure

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/coopers-original-stout-review.17817/

 

[dwhite60]

The kits cannot to be too bad anyhow as there's a 44 page thread below with lots of recipes and positive soundings - think I will throw some extra dark malt extract and treacle in for good measure

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/coopers-original-stout-review.17817/

That's a heck of a thread! Lots of good reviews.

All the Best,
D. White