Spinning fly sparge is awful!

[natev]

Hello Everyone.

This is about that silly spinning whirligig called a fly sparge arm. Since October 2nd, my friend and I have brewed six 10gallon batches of beer. Each time, it's always something with that ridiculous contraption. I'd like to see what others are using aside from the copper piping with slits. Please, post solutions (any vorlauf/sparge combo devices a plus). Thanks, nate

Read on for my rant on why I hate the thing.

The spinning function is pointless. Why have it spin? Spinning evenly disperses water to leave the grain bed unaffected. Well, to get the thing to spin, it needs to be blasting water to a point the renders it ineffective. I often find the grain bed is in something of a cone shape. Also, if the arm ever stops spinning but still has water flow, it destroys the nice flat grain bed.

Tiny holes are also pointless. Tiny holes = pressure needed to create force to spin the thing. Now, I'm sure people doing a RIMS system may have two devices for vourlaufing and sparging, but they pretty much do the same thing. However, those silly little holes get plugged real quick if you think you can use the fly sparge for vorlaufing. How about a design that can do more than one thing?

What happened to the little cap at the end? A short finish here, when the holes are clogged, the little plastic cap will come off and be lost forever in the grain.

All in all. A massive pain dealing with this thing, especially when I'm constantly trying to get a decent efficiency out of our mash. So Again, any better ways to do this? Preferably a vourlaufing/sparge combo.

 

[scottland]

Is your mash tun square or round? If it's round, just use a two to three foot length of silicone tubing. That creates a gentle whirlpool, and works great. Here's a picture from Kal (the electric brewery). Mine looks just like that, only without the fancy kettle.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/images/IMG_8009.jpg taken from Brew Day: Step by Step

 

[frazier]

Well mate, I don't have an answer to your question unless the question is "Why bother?", in which case my answer is, "You don't have to." You can batch sparge like a lot of us do. No contraptions required. I just start my runoff into a gallon jug, and return the first couple quarts back into the tun (gently). Then I runoff until it stops, and add the sparge water. Stir, wait a few minutes, start runoff again, also returning the first few quarts.

There are other ways to do it. Find the way that works for you without stress, aggro, or fighting with contraptions. Cheers!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I used a perforated pie tin floating on top or resting on top of the mash bed for a very long time but now I just let teh sparge water swirl over top of the mash bed and have had no loss in sparge efficiency.

 

[Shooter]

Well, can't say I've had any of the problems you're talking about with my sparge arm, but, like others have said, there are definitely other methods that work just fine.

 

[509inc]

Your vourlaufing thru a whirligig? Something about that doesn't sound right to me.

 

[natev]

I'm using a 15g boilermaker for the mash tun. So it's round. I like the hose idea, however I don't want to create any mash-disturbing water flow, such as a whirlpool. A whirlpool may cause the sparge water to take the path of least resistance and flow to the edges leaving the center of the grain less rinsed.

Pie pan is a nice idea. I've been thinking about doing something like that, I'll post a diagram of what I might make below.

As for "why bother". I really enjoy taking things as far as possible. Both in the absolute precision and best possible efficiency, as well as the desire to do as little as possible when actually brewing. (image below of detailed record) One great advancement was using a RF switch to control the pump, so to manage temp and sparge water I push a button on a switch in my pocket. It gets cold where I'm at and it's real nice to not only remain sitting to do this, but also to not even take my hands out of my pockets.

Our efficiencies have been as follows: 55%, 76%, 58%, 70%, 75%, 72%. This is annoying and although the sparge arm may have nothing to do with it. I'd like to eliminate as many kinks in the process so I can begin to pinpoint the problem and then fix it.

thanks again for the replies, any more would be appreciated.
nate

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I like the hose idea, however I don't want to create any mash-disturbing water flow, such as a whirlpool. A whirlpool may cause the sparge water to take the path of least resistance and flow to the edges leaving the center of the grain less rinsed.

I assure you that couple with a 2" minum water level above the filter bed and 80% avg efficiencies that channeling is not happening on my system. No matter what Palmer may say about it.

 

[wailingguitar]

Once you have a couple inches of water over the grain bed, just get your sparge water in... Hell, I use a piece of tube coming off a bottling bucket and a wooden spoon as a diffuser. Once the initial couple inches is established, I open the valve all the way and get the rest in as fast as possible.

I started doing this in a pub that had an open grant for the runoff. It was a pain to get the runoff and sparge equalized... One day I just said "screw it" and opened the sparge wide (one of only three I ever brewed on with a rotating arm, most used spray balls). It worked great. From that time on, I would start runoff (after vorlauf), begin slow sparge until level was established, then crank it... once there was a buffer of water, the fast spinning action didn't effect the surface of the grain bed.

 

[scottland]

I assure you that couple with a 2" minum water level above the filter bed and 80% avg efficiencies that channeling is not happening on my system. No matter what Palmer may say about it.

The whirlpool is very, very gentle, even with my march pump turned all the way up. It's probably the simplest, most foolproof sparging solution out there. Just make sure to keep at least an inch of water over the grain bed, and you're fine.

 

[wailingguitar]

I assure you that couple with a 2" minum water level above the filter bed and 80% avg efficiencies that channeling is not happening on my system. No matter what Palmer may say about it.

This ^

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The whirlpool is very, very gentle, even with my march pump turned all the way up. It's probably the simplest, most foolproof sparging solution out there. Just make sure to keep at least an inch of water over the grain bed, and you're fine.

This ^

I am willing to bet that if the late Dr Fix were still breathing that this method would be HB Gospel.

 

[ajf]

I use a silly spinning whirligig thingie called a sparge arm. I've been using it since the early 90's, and it hasn't let me down yet.

The spinning function is very useful. I mount mine through the lid in the cooler, and the spinning gives an audible indication about how hast the sparge water is flowing, without me having to open the lid. I use gravity to feed it, and it needs very little head of water to make it spin at an acceptable rate. I certainly don't have to blast water through it, and it doesn't destroy the grain bed.

The tiny holes are perfect. With minimal water flow, they cause the arm to spin, giving the audible feed back. I've been using mine for over 15 years, and it's never got plugged. If you vorlauf through the sparge arm and plug it up, that is your fault, not the fault of the sparge arm.

And Ive never lost one of the caps at the ends of the arms

With it, I get 85% efficiency into the kettle. Sure, there are other ways to fly sparge, but I find the sparge arm to be very effective.

-a.

 

[natev]

I can appreciate your undying support of the spinning sparge arm; I don't doubt that you've used it successfully for years. I also know that if I vorlauf through it, and it clogs, it's obviously my fault.

However, I was hoping for (and certainly got a few) better solutions, even ones that can do both, vorlauf and sparge. Simply because something works for some people doesn't necessarily make it a great solution to the problem. Thanks for the help though...

I think I will try either the hose/whirlpool method or perhaps build something similar to my illustration and report back. Next brew day is this Saturday so we'll see what I can get done.


thanks everyone.

P.S. I had a laugh, it was Palmer that got the runoff channeling idea in my head.

 

[ajf]

I apologize for my insensitivity. I tend to say what I know. If I don't know, I will say what I believe, explaining that I don't know, but why I believe what I say.
You say "I was hoping for (and certainly got a few) better solutions"
I don't disagree that you got some alternative solutions, but until you try them and find that they work for you, you cannot know that they are better.
"Simply because something works for some people doesn't necessarily make it a great solution to the problem." You said it, not me.
The point of my post was to explain that the sparge arm works really well for sparging (for me), but that if you try to vorlauf through it and it clogs up, you should find a different method for the vorlauf.
There is nothing wrong with using one method for the vorlauf, and another method for the sparge; but insisting on the same method for both procedures could lead to less than optimum results.

-a.

 

[shutupjojo]

Locline works fantastic. I use it for wort recirculation and sparging. You can adjust it however you want.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Lol at the blurred out recipe.

 

[natev]

Ah Locline! I saw a photo of someone using that and couldn't figure out what it was called. I will definitely try that out.

Eh, I spend time and effort on the recipes, someday I hope to open a brewery and would rather not hand them out.

 

[bja]

Eh, I spend time and effort on the recipes, someday I hope to open a brewery and would rather not hand them out.

 

[eltorrente]

LOL my thoughts exactly

 

[bowiefan]

I do multiple batch sparge and have routine efficiency of 90%. Just sayin'

 

[scottland]

Eh, I spend time and effort on the recipes, someday I hope to open a brewery and would rather not hand them out.

I suppose we shouldn't share brewing tips and tricks either? Or equipment ideas such as better sparging solutions?

It may sound blunt, but your recipes aren't that special.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

...but your recipes aren't that special.

Wait. This isn't the placenta guy, is it?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Eh, I spend time and effort on the recipes, someday I hope to open a brewery and would rather not hand them out.

So, you source from Brewing Classic Styles then eh?

 

[natev]

Hmm from pittsburgh huh? I've been checking out "east end brewing company", that guy seems to be having a good time starting his own brewery. So it's certainly not impossible. Where i'm at, there is a rising interest in craft brewing and a brewpub doing quite well already.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Hmm from pittsburgh huh? I've been checking out "east end brewing company", that guy seems to be having a good time starting his own brewery. So it's certainly not impossible. Where i'm at, there is a rising interest in craft brewing and a brewpub doing quite well already.

No one is saying anything about the technicalities of running a brewery. We are simply mocking your secretive approach toward recipes as if you think there is anything that hasn't been tried (unless you really are the placenta guy).

It's a well documented fact that a brewer can do a recipe on one system and then on another and have distinctly different beers. A LOT of this having to do with yeast management the rest having to do with system nuances and water.

Very little having to do with the recipe itself as everyone knows that the ingredients change with the season thus forcing the brewer to compensate in order to maintain some sense of consistency. Unless blending is practiced.

 

[bja]

Hmm from pittsburgh huh? I've been checking out "east end brewing company", that guy seems to be having a good time starting his own brewery. So it's certainly not impossible. Where i'm at, there is a rising interest in craft brewing and a brewpub doing quite well already.

Butler actually, but most people have never heard of it.

I was more amused with your secrecy of recipes. You've been brewing a little over 2 months now, so I'm sure they are something special.

 

[natev]

Well certainly hold back tips if you want, but I will take all the input people are willing to give. Then hopefully I use that information to make a living. I'm sure my recipes are not that special now, but in time they may be.

If you want to cut me down that's fine. However, I'm always in search of something I'd love to do for a living. This may not be it, but who knows. But, by all means roll your eyes, and keep making beer clones in an orange cooler.

 

[natev]

Yeah, actually part of the blurring was so i wasn't mocked about using "incorrect" grain or hops for a style. Simply to show what I was doing to keep things accurate.

I grew up around Lower Burrell, New Kensington. I know the area pretty well. In fact, when I was young I'm sure I played many hockey games around Butler. I played in Kittanning for many years.

 

[509inc]

reading this thread made my day.

I'm willing to wait till you make it pro and I get the recipe in BYO one day.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

... so i wasn't mocked about using "incorrect" grain or hops for a style. Simply to show what I was doing to keep things accurate.

How is that working out for you, so far?

"incorrect" grains is only signifigant if you are brewing to style. If you are, then it is paramount. Otherwise, it is simply the "craft" of brewing.

 

[natev]

It's hard to tell if you are mocking me. But it's working pretty well.
Our first batch was OK. Dry, weak body
Second, pretty decent, malty, under carbed, needs adjustment
Our third was easily within the realm of tasty IPA's out there (however I assume those are the easier beers to make since most of the subtleties are masked by the strong flavors)

Got #4 bottling today, and #5,#6 ferming. #7 being brewed Saturday.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It's hard to tell if you are mocking me. But it's working pretty well.

In my first year of brewing nothing was very awe inspiring given the drastic changes in brewery kit and control levels. But, I tried everything. I became very adept at brewing a single large batch of wort 10-15 gallons, then splitting it off into 5 gallon batches and altering it from there. A different hop, a sugar, a spice, a steep of this or that spec grain, a yeast at this temp, the same yeast at that temp, hot ferment, cold ferment, etc... ad nauseum.

It made for leap and bounds experiences with the materials of the trade but there was not one thing I did that was anything close to original. Just when I thought I had come up with something new I found out that it had been done by the Aztecs (ex) centuries ago, etc., etc.

And, i had not used a single recipe from a book or a magazine. All were derived by my own intuition.

 

[bja]

Yeah, actually part of the blurring was so i wasn't mocked about using "incorrect" grain or hops for a style. Simply to show what I was doing to keep things accurate.

Constructive criticism isn't the same as mocking.

I grew up around Lower Burrell, New Kensington. I know the area pretty well. In fact, when I was young I'm sure I played many hockey games around Butler. I played for Kittanning for many years.

When I first started brewing I bought all my stuff from Bens Homebrewing in Tarentum. Do you know him?

 

[natev]

Yeah, understandable.

No, my family moved from the area in '96. I only go back to visit relatives from time to time.

Here, the closest home brew place is 60miles away, so most of the stuff I get is through the mail.

 

[Shooter]

But, by all means roll your eyes, and keep making beer clones in an orange cooler.

Uh, okay, thanks for the constructive advice...unless you were mocking us?!?!

 

[natev]

ha ha ha, touché.

well, at the very least, controversy and pointed comments get people's attention.

 

[shelly_belly]

A friend of mine has the whirlygig thingy. It sure is fun to watch!

 

[Shooter]

A friend of mine has the whirlygig thingy. It sure is fun to watch!

That it is shelly_belly, that it is!

 

[bigbeergeek]

I believe the reason the recipe censorship gets so much attention here is because this is the largest homebrewing community on the internet. We share everything here -- from our most prized (award-winning) recipes to house-ale recipes to brewing techniques to construction ideas (how many jester keezer clones are out there right now). You are likely here to learn a thing or two from more experienced brewers who circulate these parts and perhaps share some lessons of your own. That's sort of the point. If you blur out your recipes because you chose to not share your hard-earned secrets (or don't want to discuss why you made the decisions you did on a particular recipe) than that rubs some of us the wrong way. We are here to learn and to help others learn. Censorship runs against that ideal. Keep your secrets if you feel you should, but realize that if we all went the same route this forum wouldn't exist.