Specialty Grain techniques?

[khanti]

So I've read/heard about a lot of conflicting processes for using specialty grains in extract brewing. I've settled on a process that seems to work for me. My gut tells me that I'm getting more from my grains than I would from other methods, but it is a PITA. For a 5 gallon batch, basically what I do is bring 2 gallons of water to 154f and hold it there, steeping grains in a nylon mesh 'tea' bag for 30 min. When there are about 10 minutes left in the steep, I fire up the brew kettle with 3g +/- and when the clock runs out on steeping, I dump the 'grain tea' into the brew kettle. By then, the water in the kettle is 170+. I've heard of many other seemingly easier methods. I don't want to start a holy-war here, but if anyone can help shed some light on the pros/cons of each method, it would be much appreciated! Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

Others methods I've heard of include
- putting grains in 'tea bag' in cold brew-kettle and pulling them at boil
- putting grains in 'tea bag' in cold brew-kettle and pulling them at 170f

I'm tempted to do a little experiment and brew the same recipe with all three methods, but I wanted to get the opinions of the masses first.

Thanks!

 

[Clonefarmer]

I have used the following method from my LHBS with good results. Bring the water to 170 and shut off the heat. Add the grain bag and let the grain drop the temp to about 154. If it gets below 154 add heat to maintain temp.

 

[khanti]

Thanks for the feedback! Is there any benefit for having the grains run through the whole range of temps between 170 and 154 or is it more of a convenience thing? If it's more for convenience, then that seems like a good plan, especially if your stove is unpredictable. I'm lucky, I guess, I have an electric stove and I've figured out exactly where to leave the dial for 2g of water to hold 154.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Just for convenience.

 

[Jaybird]

What I sugest is to bring 1/2 your brewing water to 155* and add steeping grain bag and hold for 30 min ( making grain tea). Bring other 1/2 of brewing water (clear water) to about 165-170. When you hit 30 min or so on tea pull bag and rinse with clear 165-170* water into your brew pot then add your grain tea.
Jay

 

[Schwoopty]

I use the same technique as Jaybird and it has worked great for me. The only difference for what I do is, depending on the recipe, will steep for 20 min instead of 30 min. I keep the temp between 150-154 and then sparge with 170 water. The water to grain ratio I use is about 1.5 gallons of water per pound of crushed grains. I then sparge with 1.5 gallons to get a 3 gallon boil.

Only reason I would hesitate to start at 170 and then drop down from there is that you may deactivate some of the enzymes in the steep if your temp doesnt drop fast enough. If it goes down from 170 to 160 within 5 or 10 min then you should be fine. Any longer then you may want to start at a lower temp.

 

[Yooper]

Well, "steeping" grains don't give you much, if anything, in the way of fermentables anyway so you don't have to worry about denaturing any enzymes. If you're not using malts that have diastatic power anyway, you won't have those enzymes anyway.

A good reason to not go over 170 is to not extract tannins, so it's still good practice but it doesn't have anything to do with the actual steeping.

When you're steeping grains like crystal or chocolate malt, you're basically making tea. That "tea" has great color and flavor, so that is why you do it.

Some people bag their grains, and put it in the water as the water heats and remove it at 170. Some bring their water to 160, and then add the grains and let it steep for 20 minutes. Either way is fine. You can rinse the grains with clear water if you want to. You may get a tinge of more flavor from them.

 

[maida7]

I throw them in the begining with 5 gallons of cold water and heat everything to 155F. I turn off the heat at 155F +/- and they sit at that temp for 20 min +/-. Then I bob them around a bit. Then I pull out the grain bag with a fork and rinse it with 1 gallon of cold water.

 

[Schwoopty]

Thanks for the clarification Yooper. I didnt realize the specialty grains didnt contain as many enzymes as the base malts used in all grain. I guess since Im not an all grain brewer I shouldnt have assumed that it was the case!

I had always thought that steeping specialty grains added gravity to your boil which is why I thought there were enzymes that were released into the boil. Is that the case or is it strictly flavor and color?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the clarification Yooper. I didnt realize the specialty grains didnt contain as many enzymes as the base malts used in all grain. I guess since Im not an all grain brewer I shouldnt have assumed that it was the case!

I had always thought that steeping specialty grains added gravity to your boil which is why I thought there were enzymes that were released into the boil. Is that the case or is it strictly flavor and color?

Generally, specialty malts like crystal, chocolate malt, etc, give almost no fermentable sugars to the steeping liquid. They do give plenty of flavor and color. Since they aren't mashed, and they have already been processed, they don't give any meaningful amount of fermentables to the wort. Crystal malt, for example, has a diastatic power of 0. Not only do they not give you much in the way of fermentables in steeping, they don't have any enzymatic power to convert other malts either.

 

[khanti]

Interesting discussion. I too had assumed that the steeping process extracted fermentables, since they appear to in the recipes in Beersmith. So it seems that the key it to keep it below 170* and get as much flavor and color as you wish out of it. I think I'll stick with my current method as it seems consistent with this and it's what I'm used to. Thanks!

 

[Scimmia]

Just to be clear, steeping will extract some sugars that contribute to the gravity of your wort, but the majority of those sugars will be unfermentable.

 

[Schwoopty]

Im happy I had this misconception! Always learning something new here.

Another question that would fall in line with this would be the time factor. Does it matter if its steeped for 10 min or 30 min? My guess is yes but then how long is too long until you start to get some tannin flavors imparted on your beer. And if the sugars extracted are unfermentable, could you go to an extreme and steep 3 or 4 lbs of grain and increase the body of the beer that way instead of adding lactose or is the level of those sugars extracted negligible to have any effect?

Also, and I think this was answered already, but can the water used to "sparge" the grains be cold since there are no enzymes to worry about? Or, could the water be boiling when you douse the grains to bring the total volume of your wort to a boil faster? Would either way have a negative effect on flavor?

Lots of questions

 

[Yooper]

Im happy I had this misconception! Always learning something new here.

Another question that would fall in line with this would be the time factor. Does it matter if its steeped for 10 min or 30 min? My guess is yes but then how long is too long until you start to get some tannin flavors imparted on your beer. And if the sugars extracted are unfermentable, could you go to an extreme and steep 3 or 4 lbs of grain and increase the body of the beer that way instead of adding lactose or is the level of those sugars extracted negligible to have any effect?

Also, and I think this was answered already, but can the water used to "sparge" the grains be cold since there are no enzymes to worry about? Or, could the water be boiling when you douse the grains to bring the total volume of your wort to a boil faster? Would either way have a negative effect on flavor?

Lots of questions

Time really doesn't matter. I mean, sure, 2 minutes is way too little, but once you've extracted most of the grains' goodness, there isn't any reason to steep longer. 20 minutes is usually about right, but a little longer won't hurt. There aren't many sugars that you extract- it's really negligible on the OG. You don't want to sparge with boiling water- you want the temperature of the grain bed no higher than 170, so that you don't extract tannins.

Keep in mind that we're talking about specialty grains and steeping. A partial mash with base grains IS a different ball game!

 

[Schwoopty]

Heh, partial mash is definitely different. I did an Alaskan Amber clone with a partial mash and it really made me wish I had the set up to do all grain brews. But partial and specialty grains will have to suffice for now!

Thanks for the tips Yooper. It sounds like I was doing it properly all along, I just didnt know the exact benefits I was receiving in my brew from the steep.

 

[Scimmia]

There aren't many sugars that you extract- it's really negligible on the OG.

Wait a minute there, you sure about that? Palmer would seem to disagree:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

 

[McKBrew]

One thing to consider is making sure if you have a large specialty grain bill that you split it up. Those things swell up quite a bit and if you are trying to get all of the flavors out of a big grain bag you might not be pulling everything out of the middle of the grain ball.

 

[Schwoopty]

Wait a minute there, you sure about that? Palmer would seem to disagree:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

It also states this at the bottom:

"* The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

My initial question pertained to the enzymatic power of steeped grains which, depending on how you translate this sub note, could mean that steeped grains do contain enzymes. The way I translate this now, though, is that the points attributed to the steep are only unconvertible sugars with little to no enzymatic power. So yes, they do contribute to body and gravity, but if you are doing a 5 gallon boil and only steeping a pound of medium crystal then you are only adding 3.6 points to your overall OG.

+1 to McKBrew. If I ever have a recipe that calls for over 1 lb of steeping grains I will split the grains into two bags with no more than a pound in each.

 

[maida7]

And if the sugars extracted are unfermentable, could you go to an extreme and steep 3 or 4 lbs of grain and increase the body of the beer that way instead of adding lactose or is the level of those sugars extracted negligible to have any effect?

This theory that if is something is good, more of that is better. It's not a good theory for making beer. A huge amount of steeping grains does not make beer better. There is the right amount for any beer. Use the right amount.

 

[Scimmia]

It also states this at the bottom:

"* The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

My initial question pertained to the enzymatic power of steeped grains which, depending on how you translate this sub note, could mean that steeped grains do contain enzymes. The way I translate this now, though, is that the points attributed to the steep are only unconvertible sugars with little to no enzymatic power. So yes, they do contribute to body and gravity, but if you are doing a 5 gallon boil and only steeping a pound of medium crystal then you are only adding 3.6 points to your overall OG.

+1 to McKBrew. If I ever have a recipe that calls for over 1 lb of steeping grains I will split the grains into two bags with no more than a pound in each.

That footnote is for the Brown Malt, Dextrin Malt, and Light Crystal, as denoted by the asterisk next to the numbers for each of them. I agree whole heartedly that steeping grains don't contain appreciable amounts of alpha and beta amylase (they could contain other enzymes, I don't know), but for the most part, they have undergone conversion during the malting process, with the lighter ones mentioned being the exceptions.

 

[Yooper]

Wait a minute there, you sure about that? Palmer would seem to disagree:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

It also states this at the bottom:

"* The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

My initial question pertained to the enzymatic power of steeped grains which, depending on how you translate this sub note, could mean that steeped grains do contain enzymes. The way I translate this now, though, is that the points attributed to the steep are only unconvertible sugars with little to no enzymatic power. So yes, they do contribute to body and gravity, but if you are doing a 5 gallon boil and only steeping a pound of medium crystal then you are only adding 3.6 points to your overall OG.

+1 to McKBrew. If I ever have a recipe that calls for over 1 lb of steeping grains I will split the grains into two bags with no more than a pound in each.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about. Really, if you look at the light crystal grains, those too are negligible if they aren't in a mash.

Try it! Steep a pound of crystal, and then dilute the volume to 5 gallons. Then check the SG. Sure, you'll get color and flavor- but the SG will not be very high and the sugars that are extract won't be very fermentable sugars.

 

[Apendecto]

Is there a minimum number of gallons I need to seep, say a pound, of specialty grains in?

I'm only asking because I could speed up my process by seeping my grains in 2 gallons of water on the stove while I wait for 4 gallons of water to hit a boil in my keggle.

 

[Yooper]

Is there a minimum number of gallons I need to seep, say a pound, of specialty grains in?

I'm only asking because I could speed up my process by seeping my grains in 2 gallons of water on the stove while I wait for 4 gallons of water to hit a boil in my keggle.

No- if you're steeping, you can steep in whatever volume you'd like. You'd probably want at least 1.5 quarts for a pound of grain, just so the grain gets thoroughly wetted and you have enough water, but you can use more if you'd like.

 

[Newbeerguy]

I've always done 1 Gallon of water per pound of grain.

 

[Apendecto]

No- if you're steeping, you can steep in whatever volume you'd like. You'd probably want at least 1.5 quarts for a pound of grain, just so the grain gets thoroughly wetted and you have enough water, but you can use more if you'd like.

Perfect. I think I just cut a half hour out of my process. Thanks!

 

[bumpnzx3]

I understand that there are several ways to make the "grain tea". However, I am unclear when I should add it in with the other items in my brew.

Should I:
A) Add the tea (hot, cold, warm, or does it matter?) to my clear water in the brew kettle, boil, add other kit ingredients, boil again.........

B) Boil clear water, add kit ingredients, add tea, then boil the whole mix

C) Boil clear water, add kit ingredients, boil, add tea, boil some more

etc......what I am getting at is what order to I combine my normal kit process and the "tea" that I made, or can I put the grain bag and kit ingredients into my boiling water at the exact same time, then pull the grain bag out when I am starting the wort chilling process?

 

[maida7]

I understand that there are several ways to make the "grain tea". However, I am unclear when I should add it in with the other items in my brew.

Should I:
A) Add the tea (hot, cold, warm, or does it matter?) to my clear water in the brew kettle, boil, add other kit ingredients, boil again.........

B) Boil clear water, add kit ingredients, add tea, then boil the whole mix

C) Boil clear water, add kit ingredients, boil, add tea, boil some more

etc......what I am getting at is what order to I combine my normal kit process and the "tea" that I made, or can I put the grain bag and kit ingredients into my boiling water at the exact same time, then pull the grain bag out when I am starting the wort chilling process?

umm none of the above.

put water in pot
put grain in water in pot
turn on heat and raise temp to 155F +/-
turn of heat and let grains soak for 20 min
remove grains
turn on heat and bring pot to a boil
turn off heat
add extract, fermentable adjuncts, etc...
stir it a whole lot to make sure it's all disolved
turn heat back on and bring it back to a boil
start the clock for making beer (usualy 60 min)
add hops when required, etc...

At least that's the way I do it and it works pretty good. I'm sure there are other methods but I think this is probably the most popular.