Sparging vs recirculation

[Jbrew]

Is there a difference in what happens in extraction between sparging with hot water and recirculating with mash liquor/wort?

I posted another thread recently where I asked about going to 2 vessel brewing from Single vessel. If I make the decision to do so, my plan was to cross recirculate between my BK which will act as a HLT since the heating element is in there and pump it over the Mash tun. Then return to BK to maintain heat and so on. I was planning to try and accomplish this using one pump and I even found another thread where someone else has done it with success.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/single-tier-1-pump.254689/

In any case, at the end of the thread, Bobby points out that although recirculating with mash liquor, it is the same as no sparge brewing.
So again, does recirculating not extract the same as sparging with hot liquor?
Thanks all for the input.

 

[Coastalbrew]

When you sparge with sparge water the sugars that are in the grain bed are rinsed off and collected in the kettle. My understanding of recirculating wort will help clarify the wort and will increase efficiency slightly, but that a sparge with water is required to fully capture all the sugars from the mash.

Sparging also has other potential benefits such as stopping enzyme conversion etc.

Ii have an all in one system that allows doing the mash sparge and boil all in one vessel which is nice. Before I got this system I tried no sparge brew in a bag and it was fine too just very inconvenient with the stove top set up I had at the time. I'm sure whatever method you settle on will make good beer. It's all about finding the system that works best for you and your gear.

Cheers

 

[Bobby_M]

When you recirculate during the mash, at most you're mechanically helping the water integrate with the particles of grain (hydration) and you ensure an even temperature throughout.

Sparging is a brewing term but the underlying scientific principal that explains the mechanics is diffusion. At the end of a mash, you have sugar water at a common homogeneous sugar density with a 100 billion tiny sponges floating around (grain particles). The density of sugar in the free running wort is the same as the density of the wort in the pores of the sponges (grain) due to principals of diffusion. Basically everything wants to be at equilibrium.

If you were to fully separate the grain from the wort either by pulling the bag out or draining out of the vessel, the sugar loss is exactly equal to the wort trapped in the grain. That's exactly what happens in a full volume no sparge brewing process. It doesn't matter if it's in one vessel, two vessels or a series of 47 cascading vessels. All the wort is spread across the entire system at the same density and it doesn't matter where the actual pile of grain resides.

In a sparge, you introduce plain water into the system in various ways. Plain water at 0% sugar density sits next to a sponge containing 20% sugar density and by diffusion, some of that sugar migrates out into the water.

The thing that is difficult to grasp is that sparging is a modest gain. In a full volume mash, the density (gravity) is relatively low because all the sugar is spread across a larger volume of water. That means the liquid trapped in the grain is low gravity so the sugar loss is relatively low. Besides, in a brew in a bag system you get to physically squeeze it out for recovery. In a concentrated mash system that allows for true sparging (fly or batch), the high concentrated wort is drained away while new water is pulling a lot of the remaining sugars away.

Anyway. I stand by my previous point. A two vessel system is exactly the same as a single vessel BIAB from a wort mechanics perspective. It in no way is more like sparging. It can only be sparging if new water is introduced which requires a 3rd vessel or other source of water.

 

[eric19312]

Two vessel recirculation is a good way to do no sparge brewing if you don't have a single pot big enough to hold all your grain and mash water. I tried it once to see if it made my brew day easier and it went ok. I used two pumps since my MLT and BK are on same level. In the end was not easier than three vessel given I already have set up which works with one pump (elevated HLT) and cleaning the HLT is not a thing. I just turn it upside down on the brew stand once it is empty.

Bobby's points above explain difference between sparging with water and recirculating wort. And reason that the efficiency gain is modest. I can't say it any better.

 

[Dland]

As a three vessel brewer, I don't disagree with above comments. To get the full benefit of sparging, it seems to me three vessels are needed, as HLT is dispensing hot sparge water to MT while BK is receiving wort during sparging process.

Also having two heat high heat vessels saves time, as one can start heating BK during sparge as soon as there is a reasonable amount of wort in it, or element is covered in electric system.

Another benefit of separate HLT & BK is one can heat sanitation water in HLT while wort is boiling, if one sanitizes transfer lines, plate cooler, or fermentor just prior to use.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree that two vessel brewing is one way to deal with not having a large enough kettle for single vessel. I would argue that the cost of obtaining that second vessel, pump, autosparge, false bottom, etc would be more expensive than upgrading that single kettle to a larger one.

I think where it becomes more practical is when you reach a batch size that makes bag extraction difficult. I think that threshold is after 1/2BBL. I've been a part of brew days where the bag being hoisted out requires a block and tackle pulley and it's a little scary. For 5 to 10 gallon batches where you CAN establish an overhead lifting point, single vessel BIAB wins.

 

[Bobby_M]

Another benefit of separate HLT & BK is one can heat sanitation water in HLT while wort is boiling, if one sanitizes transfer lines, plate cooler, or fermentor just prior to use.

This is off topic but why do this with water when you can do it with wort?

 

[hopjuice_71]

This is off topic but why do this with water when you can do it with wort?

Read my mind.

 

[Dland]

This is off topic but why do this with water when you can do it with wort?

You clean and sanitize your just emptied fermentors with hot wort? I use a hot PBW/Starsan cycle, but perhaps I'm wasting time and chemicals. Will hot wort remove all of old yeast residue form fermentor walls?

 

[hopjuice_71]

You clean and sanitize your just emptied fermentors with hot wort? I use a hot PBW/Starsan cycle, but perhaps I'm wasting time and chemicals. Will hot wort remove all of old yeast residue form fermentor walls?

Sorry, saw transfer lines and plate chiller and assumed you meant sanitizing prior to wort transfer from BK into fermentor.

 

[eric19312]

You clean and sanitize your just emptied fermentors with hot wort? I use a hot PBW/Starsan cycle, but perhaps I'm wasting time and chemicals. Will hot wort remove all of old yeast residue form fermentor walls?

Did not see your mention of cleaning...just sanitizing. Sure having your HLT available to produce cleaning water is another benefit of the three vessel system I suppose. Cleaning with hot pbw and rinsing with hot water I get,

But do you sanitize with hot star-san?

 

[Dland]

Did not see your mention of cleaning...just sanitizing. Sure having your HLT available to produce cleaning water is another benefit of the three vessel system I suppose. Cleaning with hot pbw and rinsing with hot wateer.

But do you sanitize with hot star-san?

Or Saniclean, (low foam version) usually do not bother to get as hot as the PBW (that is usually above 180F) but it is pretty warm. I just set the EZ-Boil to temp I want on Mash setting and the water heats in HLT while I deal with hop step, wort transfer or whatever.

I do always sanitize after the PBW, which is a cleanser, not a sanitizer. I had a string of dumper infections a couple years ago, have been pretty sanitary since then.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right on... you said sanitize, not clean but it's all good. It was just a curiosity.

 

[Jbrew]

Thank you all for the responses here. Between this thread and my previous thread I’ve decided I’m gonna stick with BIAB for now, but I’ve now made plans to finally build a more permanent 3 vessel eherms system in my basement in the future like I’ve always wanted.
Thanks all

 

[marjen]

So I am coming from gas BIAB and setting up a multi vessel electric system. I was planning a 2 vessel system. Was going to heat water in BK and circulate it through a counterflow chiller while circulating wort from the MT through it as well. Basically a herms. But I am starting to wonder if that is really any different than just doing biab? I still don't really understand thew sparking step but seems like if I am not introducing new water than I am doing nothing more than BIAB but in 2 vessels? Is this correct?

 

[sicktght311]

So I am coming from gas BIAB and setting up a multi vessel electric system. I was planning a 2 vessel system. Was going to heat water in BK and circulate it through a counterflow chiller while circulating wort from the MT through it as well. Basically a herms. But I am starting to wonder if that is really any different than just doing biab? I still don't really understand thew sparking step but seems like if I am not introducing new water than I am doing nothing more than BIAB but in 2 vessels? Is this correct?

BIAB/No Sparge brewing effectively takes the entire brew session's worth of water, and does it all in one process from start to finish. 8ish gallons of water, mash in that, remove the bag/basket and let it drain, leaving behind 6ish gallons to boil down to final 5gallon finished volume.

Traditional 3 vessel/2vessel sparge/lauter methods of brewing splits that 8 gallons into multiple steps. Mashing with 4 gallons, then taking the remaining 4 gallons of clean water to rinse the grains after the mash and simultaneously transfer that mixture to the boil kettle to extract all the sugars left behind to reach your final boil volume. Its the same end goal as squeezing the bag, except rinsing with fresh water to more effectively rinse the sugars out