Sparging too fast?

[motobrewer]

I've just started fly sparing and I'm having some efficiency issues. I get great mash conversion and first runnings but my problem is I get to my pre-boil volume and my final runnings are still really rich (1.016).

So I'm getting terrible boil kettle efficiency. I could just keep sparging but I don't want to sit there and boil for 2 hours. Am I sparging too fast? Incorrectly?

 

[doug293cz]

How long does it take you to sparge, and for what batch size? Can't compare to typical fly sparge times without knowing your time.

Since your end of sparge runnings are relatively high SG, you probably don't have a channeling problem.

What is the dead volume of your mash tun? The more dead volume you have, the more high gravity wort can be retained there, and it could take extra sparge water to dilute the wort in the dead volume in order to get your final running gravity down where you want it.

Brew on

 

[motobrewer]

10 gallon batch, probably 30 minutes or so.

 

[hunter306]

I'd say you're sparging about half as long as you need to for that batch size. We do 12-13g into our BK and 10g out of the fermenter and I'm fly sparging for 60 minutes minimum (often 75-90).

 

[Terek]

too slow of a fly sparge. I had this problem when I started. I typically have a 45-60 min sparge time for a 5 gal batch. Thats getting around 6.5-7 gal in the BK. Try and slow things down. Slower is better

 

[motobrewer]

ug, i should stick with batch sparging!

thanks for the tips.

 

[Terek]

I like batch sparging too. But, I have found that fly gives a much better eff. I went from 70% to 85% when I started fly sparging. Personally I find the time invested is worth the price savings on grain. I love shaving a dollar here and a dollar there on my brews.

 

[doug293cz]

10 gallon batch, probably 30 minutes or so.

You might be going a little fast. Run offs of 1 qt/min, or lower, are generally recommended. For ten gallon batches, you should be shooting for a 45 min to 1 hr lauter.

You didn't answer about your dead space.

Brew on

 

[motobrewer]

You might be going a little fast. Run offs of 1 qt/min, or lower, are generally recommended. For ten gallon batches, you should be shooting for a 45 min to 1 hr lauter.

You didn't answer about your dead space.

Brew on

maybe a quart of deadspace in the mash tun

 

[doug293cz]

maybe a quart of deadspace in the mash tun

A quart doesn't seem like enough to cause a big efficiency problem. Most likely, just too fast.

Brew on

 

[KartRacer54]

I typically fly sparge for 60 minutes with 5 gal batch. Has worked well. My last batch last week had a few too many brews and wound up finishing sparge in 35 minutes. Missed my numbers, slightly low. I will be more attuned to the process in the next batch.

 

[LLBrewer]

I'd say you're sparging about half as long as you need to for that batch size. We do 12-13g into our BK and 10g out of the fermenter and I'm fly sparging for 60 minutes minimum (often 75-90).

Holy ****!!! Why in the HELL would anyone do this? Single infusion batch sparge. 5 minutes and damn the point or two of efficiency or why ever people still fly sparge at home brew scales.

 

[LLBrewer]

I like batch sparging too. But, I have found that fly gives a much better eff. I went from 70% to 85% when I started fly sparging. Personally I find the time invested is worth the price savings on grain. I love shaving a dollar here and a dollar there on my brews.

Sorry but I strongly disagree. An extra buck or two of grain is nowhere near enough $$ to offset the stupid time you are wasting.

 

[bragona71]

Might want to look at mash thickness when building water infusion for the recipe. I had a similar issue when I went to manifold instead of wire tube in my mash tun. I was at 1.25qt/lb and went to 1.50 it lowered my sparge volume and worked perfectly

 

[bragona71]

Holy ****!!! Why in the HELL would anyone do this? Single infusion batch sparge. 5 minutes and damn the point or two of efficiency or why ever people still fly sparge at home brew scales.

Sorry but I strongly disagree. An extra buck or two of grain is nowhere near enough $$ to offset the stupid time you are wasting.

I fly sparge because that's what I was taught I enjoy the hands on process, and it just works for me and a lot of us

 

[LLBrewer]

I fly sparge because that's what I was taught I enjoy the hands on process, and it just works for me and a lot of us

Well ok, but my brew day is already long enough though. I just can't imagine why people would spend an extra hour plus the extra equipment cost to save pennies per batch. Glad it works for you but seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Yooper]

Well ok, but my brew day is already long enough though. I just can't imagine why people would spend an extra hour plus the extra equipment cost to save pennies per batch. Glad it works for you but seems ridiculous to me.

You've made your point. More than once. We all do what works for us, and it's not 'ridiculous' unless you've tried it on the same equipment and decided that it was a failure.

Just because you do things differently doesn't mean that others are wrong. Please be mindful of that. Thank you.

 

[LLBrewer]

You've made your point. More than once. We all do what works for us, and it's not 'ridiculous' unless you've tried it on the same equipment and decided that it was a failure.

Just because you do things differently doesn't mean that others are wrong. Please be mindful of that. Thank you.

I never said anyone was wrong. It's 'ridiculous' because it takes much more time and effort than batch sparging for the same result. If someone shows me a more efficient way to make beer without a drop in quality then I'd love to hear that my method is also ridiculous. I'm all about efficiency without sacrificing quality.

 

[LLBrewer]

You've made your point. More than once. We all do what works for us, and it's not 'ridiculous' unless you've tried it on the same equipment and decided that it was a failure.

Just because you do things differently doesn't mean that others are wrong. Please be mindful of that. Thank you.

Ok I should qualify the statement a bit. It's ridiculous unless you actually want to spend more time on brew day. Some people do I guess. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Yooper]

Ok I should qualify the statement a bit. It's ridiculous unless you actually want to spend more time on brew day. Some people do I guess. Nothing wrong with that.

OR
you have a system (like mine) where the dumb thing clogs in the bottom draining part if you batch sparge and disturb the grain bed (fixed with a BIAB bag)

OR
you like to FWH for the 45 minute it takes to sparge so that the wort in the boil kettle is steeping with hops

OR
You actually do get a huge efficiency bump and find it's more reliably so

OR
you clean some equipment during this sparge and it takes 30 minutes or more to get to a boil anyway so that isn't really "extra 30 minutes"

OR
People have systems set up ideally for continuous sparging and can do it pretty much 'hands off' by using two pumps instead of physically vorlaufing twice and moving hoses and things

Etc.

Let's not use words like "stupid", "ridiculous", " Why in the HELL would anyone do this?", etc. That sounds quite demeaning, and many of us do have reasons for doing what we do that you may not understand or grasp because you don't know all of our equipment.

 

[LLBrewer]

OR
you have a system (like mine) where the dumb thing clogs in the bottom draining part if you batch sparge and disturb the grain bed (fixed with a BIAB bag)

OR
you like to FWH for the 45 minute it takes to sparge so that the wort in the boil kettle is steeping with hops

OR
You actually do get a huge efficiency bump and find it's more reliably so

OR
you clean some equipment during this sparge and it takes 30 minutes or more to get to a boil anyway so that isn't really "extra 30 minutes"

OR
People have systems set up ideally for continuous sparging and can do it pretty much 'hands off' by using two pumps instead of physically vorlaufing twice and moving hoses and things

Etc.

Let's not use words like "stupid", "ridiculous", " Why in the HELL would anyone do this?", etc. That sounds quite demeaning, and many of us do have reasons for doing what we do that you may not understand or grasp because you don't know all of our equipment.

Right I get it. Here's the incontrovertible truth though: batch sparging takes less time, equipment, and is simpler and less error prone. Whatever 'huge' bump in efficiency you MIGHT get is easily made up in an extra buck or two of malt. Those are the facts. To each his own though...

 

[jbaysurfer]

in·con·tro·vert·i·ble
ˌinkäntrəˈvərdəb(&#601l/
adjective
not able to be denied or disputed

Nearly everything you said is argumentative. Re-read the definition of incontrovertible, and please let people discuss the topic at hand. As a batch sparger, I'm interested in the actual answers to Motobrewers question.

 

[LLBrewer]

in·con·tro·vert·i·ble
ˌinkäntrəˈvərdəb(&#601l/
adjective
not able to be denied or disputed

Nearly everything you said is argumentative. Re-read the definition of incontrovertible, and please let people discuss the topic at hand. As a batch sparger, I'm interested in the actual answers to Motobrewers question.

"batch sparging takes less time, equipment, and is simpler and less error prone."

That statement is not argumentative and is incontrovertible. Yes I understand the word.

 

[b-boy]

Right I get it. Here's the incontrovertible truth though: batch sparging takes less time, equipment, and is simpler and less error prone. Whatever 'huge' bump in efficiency you MIGHT get is easily made up in an extra buck or two of malt. Those are the facts. To each his own though...

Yes - and BIAB people will argue with you about the inefficiencies of batch sparging. To each his own.... It's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

 

[Yooper]

"batch sparging takes less time, equipment, and is simpler and less error prone."

That statement is not argumentative and is incontrovertible. Yes I understand the word.

I've asked you (nicely) to stop. Aside from being insulting, you've added 0 to this thread.

Your opinion has been noted. Repeatedly. We all know how you feel. I don't normally continue to explain or ask nicely. When an admin asks you to cease, it would be a good idea.

Now, please move on to a thread that you CAN contribute to. Thank you.

 

[LLBrewer]

I've just started fly sparing and I'm having some efficiency issues. I get great mash conversion and first runnings but my problem is I get to my pre-boil volume and my final runnings are still really rich (1.016).

So I'm getting terrible boil kettle efficiency. I could just keep sparging but I don't want to sit there and boil for 2 hours. Am I sparging too fast? Incorrectly?

In an attempt to "add something" to this thread I will say that fly sparging requires a properly designed false bottom (another variable that is minimized by batch sparging). What are you using as a manifold?

 

[motobrewer]

a false bottom. how do you batch sparge?

 

[schematix]

I fly sparge 14G in about 25 minutes and get 92-93% efficiency. As long as you aren't channeling or side wall shunting you should get very close to maximum extraction, regardless of the speed. Going faster than your equipment allows though, will leak to a stuck sparge, channeling, or side wall shunting.

 

[Terek]

I fly sparge 14G in about 25 minutes and get 92-93% efficiency. As long as you aren't channeling or side wall shunting you should get very close to maximum extraction, regardless of the speed. Going faster than your equipment allows though, will leak to a stuck sparge, channeling, or side wall shunting.

do you use a herms system? I havent used one but i think the continuous circulation during the mash does what a fly sparge does. Since whatever happens during the fly that bumps eff. has already been done, you can just get it out of there.

 

[wmilas]

Sounds like you aren't fly sparging for long enough. I aim for 45-50 minutes when doing 5 gallons, 60 when doing 10, or a high gravity 5. When doing high gravity I'm usually collecting more runnings for an extended boil down so its not that I'm sparging slower, but sparging longer at the same rate for more volume.

As far as batch vs fly, On my herms system 2 batch sparging is only about 5 minutes faster that fly for me. And batch sparging is ALOT more effort while fly is set it and forget it. Fly sparging also results on ALOT less trub in my boil kettle along with a lot less effort of having to stir mash around. If I want to speed up batch I'd have to skip resetting the grain bed which causes a bunch of stuff to enter the boil kettle, which then causes a bunch of stuff to clog up my BK filter, blah blah.

I can spend 45 minutes cleaning stuff while my system happily chugs away. If I batch sparge I can't so i actually lose time batch sparging.

 

[LLBrewer]

Sounds like you aren't fly sparging for long enough. I aim for 45-50 minutes when doing 5 gallons, 60 when doing 10, or a high gravity 5. When doing high gravity I'm usually collecting more runnings for an extended boil down so its not that I'm sparging slower, but sparging longer at the same rate for more volume.

As far as batch vs fly, On my herms system 2 batch sparging is only about 5 minutes faster that fly for me. And batch sparging is ALOT more effort while fly is set it and forget it. Fly sparging also results on ALOT less trub in my boil kettle along with a lot less effort of having to stir mash around. If I want to speed up batch I'd have to skip resetting the grain bed which causes a bunch of stuff to enter the boil kettle, which then causes a bunch of stuff to clog up my BK filter, blah blah.

I can spend 45 minutes cleaning stuff while my system happily chugs away. If I batch sparge I can't so i actually lose time batch sparging.

As the brew size goes up fly sparging makes more sense. Of course the inverse is true, as batch size goes down it makes less sense. In order to eliminate the resetting the grain bed time I mash in a BIAB type grain bag. Again this is less feasible the more grain you need to mash.

 

[kanzimonson]

I'd like to dispute that fly sparging takes so much longer than batch. There are a couple things you can do when fly sparging to even the playing field:

1) I mash at 1.5qts/lb typically. This means that there's a good 1-2 gallons of wort above my grain bed. When I begin sparging, I run this out at a pretty fast clip - maybe not full bore but run it out in five minutes.

2) Once the liquid level reaches the grain bed, slow the flow down to about 1qt/minute and then begin adding sparge water. You'll have already collected about 1/3 of your wort at this point.

3) The other thing that nobody takes into account when they compare fly and batch sparging is the amount of time it takes to get to boil. Sure, with batch sparging you can get the wort out of the mash tun quickly, but now you have the entire mass to bring from 150 to boil. How long does this take? When I fly sparge I heat as I go, so when the last few drops come out of the kettle I'm ready to boil.

With both methods running optimally I do think batch is faster, but it's only by about 15 minutes.

 

[Schecter]

ug, i should stick with batch sparging!

thanks for the tips.

I didn't see anyone mention it (maybe I didn't look hard enough) but have you tried the "hybrid" fly-sparge?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=75454

I add more sparge water at a time than illustrated here. I add enough to cover the top of the grain bed, and then perhaps a half inch or so more. It's worked wonders for me. I started batch sparging and only reached around 60-65%. With this "hybrid" technique, I haven't dipped below 70% (including the 1.100 RIS I just made :rockin

Cheers

 

[cantrell00]

I can only speak for my own experiences but I went from low 70's batch sparging to mid 90's HERMS/fly sparging.

23% jump equates to $6-8 per 5 gallon batch in grain cost, depending on OG of course.

Not huge amounts of money but I can squeeze out an additional batch with the same bag of grain. Not insignificant in my opinion.

 

[chewse]

I do fly sparge but have to confess that I shoot for a 30-35 minute sparge. I haven't seen the efficiency go up noticable after the 30 minute mark. However, I am running a RIMS mash which, I believe, helps to move the sugars around in the mash a bit more than a resting mash. This might be (in my own head) why my shorter sparge works OK.

 

[bbohanon]

I can only speak for my own experiences but I went from low 70's batch sparging to mid 90's HERMS/fly sparging.

23% jump equates to $6-8 per 5 gallon batch in grain cost, depending on OG of course.

Not huge amounts of money but I can squeeze out an additional batch with the same bag of grain. Not insignificant in my opinion.

This is what I am expecting to see on my setup as well as I am moving to a HERMS/fly recirc sparge from a batch sparge setup. I should be able to get a smaller grain bill for a 10 gallon batch with this efficiency which means more $$ for other batches!
Honestly I plan my brew day to take all day. I dont usually plan to do anything else that day but brew and clean up.
If I need a "knock it out quick" brew, its a 5 gallon extract batch with my HotRod and it takes about 2 hours.
To each his own however and brew on.

 

[cantrell00]

This is what I am expecting to see on my setup as well as I am moving to a HERMS/fly recirc sparge from a batch sparge setup. I should be able to get a smaller grain bill for a 10 gallon batch with this efficiency which means more $$ for other batches!
Honestly I plan my brew day to take all day. I dont usually plan to do anything else that day but brew and clean up.
If I need a "knock it out quick" brew, its a 5 gallon extract batch with my HotRod and it takes about 2 hours.
To each his own however and brew on.

Yup.... I am heating the strike water with my HLT/HERMS, 5-6 gallon batches & it usually goes like this...

Add water to HLT & MLT (10 gallons) & heat to strike temp,. While this is going on, I am grinding malt & doing water additions... 1 hour roughly.

Dough in & mash, mash step to 168, mash out. 1-1.25 hrs, depending on style (obviously)

Sparge, 1 hr.

Step to boil + boil, 1.15 - 1.45 hours. Add 30-45 for hopstands if doing doing big IPA's etc.. (clean out HLT/MLT, spoons, mashing tools, etc during this time)

Chill, rack, oxygenate & yeast pitch, 30 min.

Clean up kettle - another 30 minutes.

4.5 - 6 hrs depending on style.

 

[LLBrewer]

Yup.... I am heating the strike water with my HLT/HERMS, 5-6 gallon batches & it usually goes like this...

Add water to HLT & MLT (10 gallons) & heat to strike temp,. While this is going on, I am grinding malt & doing water additions... 1 hour roughly.

Dough in & mash, mash step to 168, mash out. 1-1.25 hrs, depending on style (obviously)

Sparge, 1 hr.

Step to boil + boil, 1.15 - 1.45 hours. Add 30-45 for hopstands if doing doing big IPA's etc.. (clean out HLT/MLT, spoons, mashing tools, etc during this time)

Chill, rack, oxygenate & yeast pitch, 30 min.

Clean up kettle - another 30 minutes.

4.5 - 6 hrs depending on style.

My process:
Heat strike water, while this is going on pre-heat tun get burner set up, pull out fermenting equipment, mix sanitizing solution, etc - ~ 30 mins

Dough in and mash, while this is going on heat sparge water and drink a beer - 1 hr

Drain mash into BK and sparge - 15 mins

Boil / clean up mashing equipment, have another HB - 1.5 hr

Cool and pitch, pull another pint ~ 1.5 hr (I can cut this down with better equipment)

Clean BK ~10 mins

Total time: ~5 hrs but could probably cut that by at least 30 minutes with a better wort chiller.

 

[motobrewer]

how are you adding sparge water?

 

[max384]

ug, i should stick with batch sparging!

thanks for the tips.

I started off batch sparging, then I went to fly sparging and noticed an efficiency increase. I then went back to batch sparging on a couple of brews due to time constraints. What I found was that the drop in efficiency was almost nonexistent. I attributed my increased efficiency to fly sparging, when it was, in fact, due to many other aspects of my process tightening up.

Right I get it. Here's the incontrovertible truth though: batch sparging takes less time, equipment, and is simpler and less error prone. Whatever 'huge' bump in efficiency you MIGHT get is easily made up in an extra buck or two of malt. Those are the facts. To each his own though...

I'm in the batch sparging camp here... But reading your posts makes me want to argue against it out of principle. Sheesh.