Sparged Too Hot: How Bad Is It???

[Iowa Brewer]

Hey all,

Today I've been making an all grain Honey Double IPA from a recipe I found on BeerSmith.

I think I've messed up in two ways.

First
I decided to batch sparge (it was listed as a single infusion, medium body).
The Recipe called for a 10min mash out with 200F water, to mash out at 68F.
Like a fool, I just assumed this could cool down quick in the Coleman. This occurred to me after 9min and I checked the temp. It was still at 179F. Will this be drinkable or have way too much astringency?

Second
The estimated SG for the 5gal batch (which I hit) was 1.08
I got 1.07. Is this related to the high temp?

I'll let things play out so I can learn/share something with you all from it, but if any of you soothsayers might have insights into what to expect, I'd be grateful!

Cheers and happy brewing

 

[RM-MN]

Tannin extraction is driven by too high of a pH, not just the high temperature. Unless you are fly sparging and sparge so long that your final runnings get to a pH of over 6.0 you have no problem If you are not fly sparging you can totally avoid this by skipping the mash out. It isn't needed for batch sparging and may not be needed for fly sparging either,

When you shoot for a big beer your target may not be reached because the recipe you follow may be written for a higher efficiency than you get plus the big beers take more grains and that by itself knocks your efficiency. Higher efficiency can be reached by two methods, milling the grain finer and adding rice hulls to help form the filter bed and avoid the stuck mash or sparge or by making sure that all the collected wort reaches the fermenter. Many people worry about the hops and hot break/cold break material and do a whirlpool to leave these behind. That bit of wort left in the pot cannot be considered as part of the beer, thus reducing the brewhouse efficiency.

 

[Rev2010]

Will this be drinkable or have way too much astringency?

Of course it will be drinkable. Yeah it may have a dry astringency to it but it's not like that will suddenly make the beer so horribly undrinkable. We drink tea and tea is far more astringent. And as noted by RM-MN pH plays the strongest role in that.

The estimated SG for the 5gal batch (which I hit) was 1.08
I got 1.07. Is this related to the high temp?

No. A too high mash out temp will not suddenly drop your efficiency.


Rev.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

As per RM-MN, astrigency is related to a high pH combined with the high temperature. The often quoted 168 mashout temperature is more for fly sparging, where the runoff gravity is so low towards the end (typically 1.008) that pH is likely to increase high enough (above 6.0) that astrigency could become an issue at high temperatures (above 168). This is not the case for batch sparging, where the wort is still typically around 1.015 to 1.020 for a second batch sparge, which will normally be enough to keep the pH in check. Astrigency with a batch sparge is only likely when using water with very high alkalinity. Do you know what the alkalinity/bicarbonate level is in your water?

In short, you probably won't have any noticeable astrigency.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Second
The estimated SG for the 5gal batch (which I hit) was 1.08
I got 1.07. Is this related to the high temp?

Your high mashout temperature won't have affected your efficiency unless conversion wasn't complete (it would have killed the enzymes rather quickly, preventing any further conversion). The estimated OG is based on someone else's system, do they list what efficiency it's based on? It could be someone BIABing with a superfine crush and tipping everything (including trub) into the fermenter, getting 90%+ efficiency. You need to adjust recipes to your equipment.

 

[passedpawn]

I batch sparge with > 200F all the time. No problem.

In a related topic, I also often batch sparge with the unheated water. I attempted to calculate the loss of efficiency and it was either very small or no effect at all. When I do back-bo-back batches, the second batch is always sparged with cold water.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

Tannin extraction is driven by too high of a pH, not just the high temperature. Unless you are fly sparging and sparge so long that your final runnings get to a pH of over 6.0 you have no problem If you are not fly sparging you can totally avoid this by skipping the mash out. It isn't needed for batch sparging and may not be needed for fly sparging either,

When you shoot for a big beer your target may not be reached because the recipe you follow may be written for a higher efficiency than you get plus the big beers take more grains and that by itself knocks your efficiency. Higher efficiency can be reached by two methods, milling the grain finer and adding rice hulls to help form the filter bed and avoid the stuck mash or sparge or by making sure that all the collected wort reaches the fermenter. Many people worry about the hops and hot break/cold break material and do a whirlpool to leave these behind. That bit of wort left in the pot cannot be considered as part of the beer, thus reducing the brewhouse efficiency.

Thanks for this, RM-MN! It's really amazing how much one learns by brewing!
By recipe might have been written for a higher efficiency, does that mean people shoot high on their recipes? Or that something went wrong when the recipe was entered into BeerSmith that gave an unrealistic calculation? Again, thanks!

 

[Iowa Brewer]

Of course it will be drinkable. Yeah it may have a dry astringency to it but it's not like that will suddenly make the beer so horribly undrinkable. We drink tea and tea is far more astringent. And as noted by RM-MN pH plays the strongest role in that.



No. A too high mash out temp will not suddenly drop your efficiency.


Rev.

Thanks Rev2010! Glad to know I'm not cultivating swill (and good point on the tea). If it's too astringent I can just add milk, like the Brits do to tea

Good to know that temp doesn't affect efficiency; so much to learn.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

As per RM-MN, astrigency is related to a high pH combined with the high temperature. The often quoted 168 mashout temperature is more for fly sparging, where the runoff gravity is so low towards the end (typically 1.008) that pH is likely to increase high enough (above 6.0) that astrigency could become an issue at high temperatures (above 168). This is not the case for batch sparging, where the wort is still typically around 1.015 to 1.020 for a second batch sparge, which will normally be enough to keep the pH in check. Astrigency with a batch sparge is only likely when using water with very high alkalinity. Do you know what the alkalinity/bicarbonate level is in your water?

In short, you probably won't have any noticeable astrigency.

This is great Gnomebrewer! Great stuff for a newbie (started this past summer) for me to learn and attune myself to.
To answer your question, I looked it up and the average range pH for my city is 7.3. Is that what you're looking for?

For my equipment, I'm using a 12gal Coleman cooler. The recipe builder had his listed as "Big Brew Equipment." I couldn't figure out how to get further details. Any insights?

Thanks again!

 

[Iowa Brewer]

I batch sparge with > 200F all the time. No problem.

In a related topic, I also often batch sparge with the unheated water. I attempted to calculate the loss of efficiency and it was either very small or no effect at all. When I do back-bo-back batches, the second batch is always sparged with cold water.

That's a relief to hear, passedpawn! Thanks! What do you mean by the unheated water? As in just out of the tap? There's so much I need to learn about efficiency.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I looked it up and the average range pH for my city is 7.3. Is that what you're looking for?

No, your water pH is almost irrelevant, it's the alkalinity or bicarbonate level that you need to know.

For my equipment, I'm using a 12gal Coleman cooler. The recipe builder had his listed as "Big Brew Equipment." I couldn't figure out how to get further details. Any insights?
Thanks again!

I just had a look at the recipe - it doesn't list the efficiency it's based on. If you're using beersmith, input all the grains listed with your equipment and see what the predicted OG is. You can then scale the recipe to get to the intended OG.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

No, your water pH is almost irrelevant, it's the alkalinity or bicarbonate level that you need to know.

Huh. I can't seem to find information on that. Hardness is 188-289, but don't think that helps.

I just had a look at the recipe - it doesn't list the efficiency it's based on. If you're using beersmith, input all the grains listed with your equipment and see what the predicted OG is. You can then scale the recipe to get to the intended OG.

Will do! Might take me a bit to figure out the process; lots of new terms in there. I'll post when I figure it out

 

[passedpawn]

That's a relief to hear, passedpawn! Thanks! What do you mean by the unheated water? As in just out of the tap? There's so much I need to learn about efficiency.

Yep. I'm not going to tell you that all my beers are award winners, but they pretty good.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've just had a look online for a water profile for Iowa. There are a couple listed on Brewers friend
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles
that give alkalinity between 140 and 150ppm as CaCO3. That's important to know - it's quite high and means you should be adding a fair bit of acid to your mash (for pale beers) to get to a suitable mash pH.

Edit: Water for brewing can be quite complicated. To keep it simple to start with, you are probably better off using RO water.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for this, RM-MN! It's really amazing how much one learns by brewing!
By recipe might have been written for a higher efficiency, does that mean people shoot high on their recipes? Or that something went wrong when the recipe was entered into BeerSmith that gave an unrealistic calculation? Again, thanks!

A recipe is usually a record of what and how someone did this. You could take this same recipe and change the expected OG to the OG that you got and you have a new recipe, one based on what and how you did. Most of the time the recipes that I have started from expect a brewhouse efficiency of 70 to 75% which means that they got that percentage of the possible sugars into their fermenter. You got less. That means your efficiency was lower than theirs.

For your next brew you have a few choices.
1. Adjust the base malt of the recipe to reflect your efficiency. Only the base malt, not the others.
2. Mill or have the grains milled finer. The milling of the grain is the biggest factor in efficiency. You might need to add some rice hulls to keep from getting a stuck sparge.
3. Make the recipe as it is written but when you find your OG to be low, adjust it by adding some malt extract. This is like a partial mash in reverse.
4. Although the 60 minute mash is typical, you might be able to increase the amount of sugars you convert and extract from the grains by extending that mash period to 90 or more minutes. That gives the water more time to move into the grain particles, gelatinize the starches, activate the enzymes, and extract the sugars back out of the particles.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

I've just had a look online for a water profile for Iowa. There are a couple listed on Brewers friend
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles
that give alkalinity between 140 and 150ppm as CaCO3. That's important to know - it's quite high and means you should be adding a fair bit of acid to your mash (for pale beers) to get to a suitable mash pH.

Edit: Water for brewing can be quite complicated. To keep it simple to start with, you are probably better off using RO water.

Hey, thanks so much, Gnomebrewer! This is super helpful!

 

[Iowa Brewer]

A recipe is usually a record of what and how someone did this. You could take this same recipe and change the expected OG to the OG that you got and you have a new recipe, one based on what and how you did. Most of the time the recipes that I have started from expect a brewhouse efficiency of 70 to 75% which means that they got that percentage of the possible sugars into their fermenter. You got less. That means your efficiency was lower than theirs.

For your next brew you have a few choices.
1. Adjust the base malt of the recipe to reflect your efficiency. Only the base malt, not the others.
2. Mill or have the grains milled finer. The milling of the grain is the biggest factor in efficiency. You might need to add some rice hulls to keep from getting a stuck sparge.
3. Make the recipe as it is written but when you find your OG to be low, adjust it by adding some malt extract. This is like a partial mash in reverse.
4. Although the 60 minute mash is typical, you might be able to increase the amount of sugars you convert and extract from the grains by extending that mash period to 90 or more minutes. That gives the water more time to move into the grain particles, gelatinize the starches, activate the enzymes, and extract the sugars back out of the particles.

This is brilliant, RM-MN! Thanks so much.
It's funny, my previous five beers have all hit the right OG. This is my first IPA, though. The others were
- Sweet Stout
- Witbier
- North English Ale
- Vienna Lager

Regardless, I'm might do a brew day next week and will be combing over your suggestions, as well as Gnomebrewer's suggestion on using RO water

 

[RM-MN]

This is brilliant, RM-MN! Thanks so much.
It's funny, my previous five beers have all hit the right OG. This is my first IPA, though. The others were
- Sweet Stout
- Witbier
- North English Ale
- Vienna Lager

Regardless, I'm might do a brew day next week and will be combing over your suggestions, as well as Gnomebrewer's suggestion on using RO water

I believe that the mash need some minerals. RO water has none. I'd probably mix the RO water with your tap water.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

I believe that the mash need some minerals. RO water has none. I'd probably mix the RO water with your tap water.

Interesting idea, will do. Do the minerals do something specific for the fermentation process?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Most brewers aim to get Calcium to at least 40ppm to supposedly help with yeast health, enzyme activity and clarity. Although I haven't tried it, I'd be willing to bet that a beer brewed with no Calcium in the water would work fine. Others (eg. chloride, sodium and sulphate) are really just for flavour.

The problem is, for new brewers, that water is one of the most complex topics in AG brewing, but one that is really important from the start. The Water Primer in the Brew Science forum is worth a read
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

The part that most new brewers struggle with is the concept of pH versus alkalinity. Alkalinity in water is a measure of how much bicarbonate there is. The higher the bicarbonate level, the more resistance there is to drop the pH. So two waters might both have a pH of 8.0 but one might have high levels of bicarbonate and one low levels of bicarbonate; the one with high levels of bicarbonate will take more acid to get to an acceptable brewing range (arguably 5.2 to 5.5). Your water has quite high levels of bicarbonate.

The way I see it, you have three options:
1. Use your water without modifying. You'll make beer, but probably not as good as it could be.
2. Use RO water either by following the water primer, or using a water calculator.
3. Use your tap water (or a mix of tap/RO), adjusting for pH using a water calculator.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

Most brewers aim to get Calcium to at least 40ppm to supposedly help with yeast health, enzyme activity and clarity. Although I haven't tried it, I'd be willing to bet that a beer brewed with no Calcium in the water would work fine. Others (eg. chloride, sodium and sulphate) are really just for flavour.

The problem is, for new brewers, that water is one of the most complex topics in AG brewing, but one that is really important from the start. The Water Primer in the Brew Science forum is worth a read
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

The part that most new brewers struggle with is the concept of pH versus alkalinity. Alkalinity in water is a measure of how much bicarbonate there is. The higher the bicarbonate level, the more resistance there is to drop the pH. So two waters might both have a pH of 8.0 but one might have high levels of bicarbonate and one low levels of bicarbonate; the one with high levels of bicarbonate will take more acid to get to an acceptable brewing range (arguably 5.2 to 5.5). Your water has quite high levels of bicarbonate.

The way I see it, you have three options:
1. Use your water without modifying. You'll make beer, but probably not as good as it could be.
2. Use RO water either by following the water primer, or using a water calculator.
3. Use your tap water (or a mix of tap/RO), adjusting for pH using a water calculator.

Cheers, Gnomebrewer! This is very helpful. I remember very little form HS chemistry.
How can I test my water's properties as I adjust?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

How can I test my water's properties as I adjust?

The only parameter that you can measure after making adjustments is pH. A decent entry level pH meter for brewing is in the $100 to $150 range (so not cheap) and while handy to have, is not needed to make good beer.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

The only parameter that you can measure after making adjustments is pH. A decent entry level pH meter for brewing is in the $100 to $150 range (so not cheap) and while handy to have, is not needed to make good beer.

Sounds good! Thanks!