Spa panel supply power question

[rkhanso]

I'm ready to wire in my spa panel. I'm mounting this in my garage, next to my already-existing sub-panel for my welder (on the left).

Question: How should I run power to the Spa panel?

• Should I just take it from the outlet I plug my welder into (though that's on only a 30A/240v breaker and the Spa breaker is a GFCI 50A/240v)?
• Or, should I add another breaker in the welder sub-panel and then run that power over to the Spa Panel?
• Or, can I somehow tap into the feed from the main house panel to the sub-panel and also run that over to the Spa panel?

The power feed to the welder sub-panel is run off a 60A/240v circuit breaker from the house panel.

Here's a picture:

 

[LarMoeCur]

You already have a powered sub panel for your welder! Pop that breaker out of spa panel and put it in the welder panel. There are plenty of poles available with power. One less headache to deal with. I would think your welder panel is on a 60 amp run. Just know your putting an 80 amp possible load on that wiring. Your find if your electric brewery is 30 amp draw. I just wouldn't be welding and brewing at the same time.

 

[thekraken]

What about earth ground?

 

[rkhanso]

You already have a powered sub panel for your welder! Pop that breaker out of spa panel and put it in the welder panel. There are plenty of poles available with power. One less headache to deal with. I would think your welder panel is on a 60 amp run. Just know your putting an 80 amp possible load on that wiring. Your find if your electric brewery is 30 amp draw. I just wouldn't be welding and brewing at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that won't work. Two different manufacturers of panels and I don't think the breakers are interchangeable.

What about earth ground?

There is ground coming from the house panel to the sub-panel. The welder sub-panel has an isolated neutral and 2 hots. The ground is mounted on the panel case.
It's a 4-conductor cable from the house (3 power, 1 ground). The house breaker box has the ground and neutral tied together (that's the way they did it back then, I guess).



Another question.... I suppose I can't add a 120v breaker to the spa panel to run the power supply for the Raspberry Pi and 12v adapter for the pump, right? I'll have to run a 120v off the welder sub-panel?

 

[thekraken]

There is ground coming from the house panel to the sub-panel. The welder sub-panel has an isolated neutral and 2 hots. The ground is mounted on the panel case.
It's a 4-conductor cable from the house (3 power, 1 ground). The house breaker box has the ground and neutral tied together (that's the way they did it back then, I guess).

Oh duh, there it is! Sorry, I was looking for a green wire. Carry on.

Another question.... I suppose I can't add a 120v breaker to the spa panel to run the power supply for the Raspberry Pi and 12v adapter for the pump, right? I'll have to run a 120v off the welder sub-panel?

You could... Most folks branch off for their 120v/low voltage within their control panel.

What are you going to be doing for your control panel? What kind of system is it? What are your requirements for portability?

 

[rkhanso]

I wasn't sure there's a place to add a breaker to the Spa Panel (and would expect there to NOT be one if it's just meant to power a spa only). I can add one from the welder panel instead.

I'm going to use Craftbeerpi on a Raspberry Pi. I'd like to get a touchscreen display for the control panel, but that may come later. I can just run the system off the GUI on my phone for now. Or I could use a laptop in the garage to control things.

No portability needed. Well, I didn't think of making it portable. I was going to make it unpluggable and movable for storage when not in use. Otherwise just planned on brewing in my garage. But now that you mention it, it may be nice to take the system to another location at times. Well, that'll have to be a future modification. I gotta get this long-term project finally finished.

I'm going to be doing BIAB. I have a 20gal aluminum kettle with a 5500 watt electric element. There are a couple one-wire temp probes connected to the Raspberry Pi. I have a 12v mini pump also controlled by Craftbeerpi to recirculate when mashing and to pump through the CFC I made.

A short video of a test of the pump (obviously, the control panel is not set up). And this is a test. That black hose will be replaced with silicone.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwyz4pv6ui2m7h5/VID_20171008_184922.mp4?dl=0

 

[thekraken]

If you put a breaker for your 120v in the spa panel or welding panel you'd have to get another gfci.

 

[itsnotrequired]

you have a neutral out to the welder but not a ground?

 

[rkhanso]

you have a neutral out to the welder but not a ground?

I have used the welder quite a bit over the last year and haven't had any trouble.
I'll have to double-check that.

 

[itsnotrequired]

I have used the welder quite a bit over the last year and haven't had any trouble.
I'll have to double-check that.

take a photo of the welding receptacle but pretty sure that white wire out to the receptacle should be on that ground bar on the left side...

 

[ZmannR2]

Question: How should I run power to the Spa panel?

Just tap into the existing main entering your welding panel. Grab a 4-wire/10gauge cable and tap right onto the two hots, load nuetral, and ground bar and swing it on over to your spa panel. Tap into the cable entering the welding panel is what I'm saying, not after the welder breaker

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Wouldn't be easier to just run a short wire out of the spa panel with the same plug as your welder receptacle and simply plug in the spa panel on brew day. The 30 Amp 240 receptacle is what you want for your spa panel and you already have it. No need to mess with the main panel. Seems safer and easier and it would be portable if you ever have the need to move it. You have an outlet just dyin for something to be plugged into it, why not use it
Its how I brew. I unplug my dryer and plug in my spa panel....simple simple

 

[ZmannR2]

Honestly I would just return the spa panel, and buy a GFCI breaker to replace the existing one in that Welding panel and ya, just use the outlet on brew day

Point is, theres a lot of ways to skin a cat lol

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Honestly I would just return the spa panel, and buy a GFCI breaker to replace the existing one in that Welding panel and ya, just use the outlet on brew day

Point is, theres a lot of ways to skin a cat lol

This would actually be remarkably easy and seems like the best/easiest/cheapest solution. As long as the GFCI doesn't trip to easy with a welder...Never owned a welder, have no idea about power requirements

 

[thekraken]

@ZmannR2 @JONNYROTTEN just plugging into his welder's receptacle would be a clean solution but it's only three wire outlet. It will depend on how he intends to configure the 120 v side of his sytem, correct? Perhaps that's why OP kept mentioning adding a 120v breaker in one of these panels, but like I mentioned before he'd need to get yet another gfci on that circuit if he went that route.

 

[thekraken]

take a photo of the welding receptacle but pretty sure that white wire out to the receptacle should be on that ground bar on the left side...

Good catch.

 

[ZmannR2]

This would actually be remarkably easy and seems like the best/easiest/cheapest solution. As long as the GFCI doesn't trip to easy with a welder...Never owned a welder, have no idea about power requirements

Good question.....with a load nuetral wire, I would think the GFCI shouldn't trip from normal welding

 

[rkhanso]

The Spa panel cost me almost 1/2 the price of a GFCI breaker for the welder sub-panel, which is why I went with the spa panel (plus, all the recommendations in other threads on HBT forums).

This thread shows how to wire a spa panel for both 3-wire and 4-wire supplies. If I use the top example, sourcing power from my welder outlet - would that be correct?

The directions that came with the spa panel say that "Load neutral is not required for 240v systems" -- so, if I move my neutral in the welder sub-panel to ground (where it really should be anyway) and then plug the spa panel into the welder outlet and use the top example on that page linked above, I'm guessing that will work and be safe and hopefully, up to code. Or, I suppose 'up to code' would be to just disconnect the neutral from the sub-panel and strip the insulation back to connect the real ground wire to the ground bar in the sub-panel.

 

[ZmannR2]

The Spa panel cost me almost 1/2 the price of a GFCI breaker for the welder sub-panel, which is why I went with the spa panel (plus, all the recommendations in other threads on HBT forums).

This thread shows how to wire a spa panel for both 3-wire and 4-wire supplies. If I use the top example, sourcing power from my welder outlet - would that be correct?

The directions that came with the spa panel say that "Load neutral is not required for 240v systems" -- so, if I move my neutral in the welder sub-panel to ground (where it really should be anyway) and then plug the spa panel into the welder outlet and use the top example on that page linked above, I'm guessing that will work and be safe and hopefully, up to code. Or, I suppose 'up to code' would be to just disconnect the neutral from the sub-panel and strip the insulation back to connect the real ground wire to the ground bar in the sub-panel.

Load nuetral is not required for 240V applications but if you're going to use one leg for a pump or anything else running as 120V it will trip the GFCI....

The bottom picture in your link is what you need to do if running anything on only one leg of your 240V circuit

 

[LarMoeCur]

I'm pretty sure that won't work. Two different manufacturers of panels and I don't think the breakers are interchangeable.

There are interchangeable breakers. You have an Eaton breaker is your welding panel a Cutler-hammer or a Square D?

Find your Eaton breaker on the pdf it may fit the panel.

https://www.colonialelectricsupply.com/pdf/landing/eaton-legacy/BR-Retrofit.pdf

 

[rkhanso]

There are interchangeable breakers. You have an Eaton breaker is your welding panel a Cutler-hammer or a Square D?

Find your Eaton breaker on the pdf it may fit the panel.

https://www.colonialelectricsupply.com/pdf/landing/eaton-legacy/BR-Retrofit.pdf

Unfortunately I didn't see any 240v GFCI breakers for my Square D Homeline sub-panel for my welder on that .pdf. The only 240v GFCI were for Square D QO breakers.

I can just run a 120v outlet for my pump and brew controller off a different GFCI 120v breaker from my welder sub-panel. I don't need to do that from the Spa panel.

 

[rkhanso]

I fixed the welder outlet wiring. The power is coming into the sub-panel from the bottom. The welder outlet is the wiring on the right side of the panel.

I think that the 3-wire feed picture on the previous link will be the correct way to connect the spa panel to the welder outlet in the 2nd picture below.....since I have 3 wires in the welder outlet (2 power and 1 ground).

Measuring the voltage between the welder outlet, I get 240v between the 2 hot terminals and 110v between either hot and the ground (since the ground and neutral are tied together in the house circuit box - the way did it in the late 1950s when the house was built).

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

FWIW my 3 wire spa panel I plug into dryer is:
White wire from GFI, ground from the cord going to dryer (welder) outlet, ground from wire going out to brew panel all on the same ground bus bar (nothing else on the bar)

remaining 2 wires from the dryer (welder) wire going to the base terminals on breaker
remaining 2 wires going to brew panel in the breaker itself.

***NOT an electrician*** but it works

 

[rkhanso]

I did quite a bit of reading on 3-wire vs. 4-wire spa and sub-panels.
After it clicked, it really does make sense.

1. The power company supplies 3 wires to your house. Two hots and a neutral.
2. In your main circuit box, the neutral bus and ground bus are tied together. The main circuit box is the ONLY place that the ground and neutral are connected together.
3. Every place outside the main circuit box, the neutral and ground have to be isolated from each other.

So, I need to strip back the wire from the sub-panel for the welder outlet and connect the ground wire to the ground bus (the wire on the right-side). Then, I need to use the ground wire at the welder outlet on the wall. Then the welder outlet will be wired correctly.

Then, to be correct with code - I probably need to run the 4 separate wires from the welder sub-panel to a 4-prong welder outlet and then to the spa panel line side, then connect the spa panel load side to the 3 wires to the heating element (2 hots and ground) -- since it's a no-no to tie the neutral and grounds together outside the main circuit panel. The neutral will only be used to power the electronics in the GFCI on the line side.

Here's a good link showing the proper way to wire a spa panel, regardless if the load off the spa panel is 3- or 4-wire.

 

[itsnotrequired]

now i'm confused as to what type of setup you have on the welding receptacle. do you have a photo of the plug at the end of the welder cable?

 

[rkhanso]

now i'm confused as to what type of setup you have on the welding receptacle. do you have a photo of the plug at the end of the welder cable?

It's in post #22 of this thread.
It's functionally wired correctly, but the wrong wire is used. I currently have the white/neutral wire going from the ground connecting strip in the sub-panel to the ground plug on the wall jack for the welder. I just need to change that to the bare ground wire instead. This is just for the welder outlet.

The Spa Panel outlet will need all 4 wires connected to the GFCI on the line side - like the diagram shows. From there I can use just the 3 wires (both hots and ground) going to the heating element in the kettle, just like the outlet for the welder.

 

[trussell]

Honestly I would just return the spa panel, and buy a GFCI breaker to replace the existing one in that Welding panel and ya, just use the outlet on brew day

Point is, theres a lot of ways to skin a cat lol

Get a normal breaker for the sub-panel to provide lugs to feed the spa panel. Spa panel takes care of the GFCI function and connect with a short 4 wire cable (2 hot, neutral and ground).

For the welder outlet cable get some green electrical tape and "code" the white for ground on each end unless you want to go to the trouble of re-doing the connections.