Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

CornyKegs 728
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Mine has been in secondary for a while and with the crystalized ginger that I used the Pumpking taste is there but no way near the level of the real Pumpking. I would have to agree that they are using some sort of extract.
 
pacifisticuffs said:
Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel. :mug:
Click to expand...

I'm guessing Castle knows to degas it first. Stirring or other agitation works, or sucking a vacuum on it with a foodsaver accessory tube works too.
 
ThatGuyRyan said:
Mine has been in secondary for a while and with the crystalized ginger that I used the Pumpking taste is there but no way near the level of the real Pumpking. I would have to agree that they are using some sort of extract.
Click to expand...

which recipe did you pattern your's after? How much candied ginger did you use? Vanilla (bean)?
 
pacifisticuffs said:
Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel. :mug:
Click to expand...

I filled a 1/2 pint mason jar about 80% full, put the lid on loosely, threw a stirbar in there and put it on the stirplate first. Had to turn the stirplate off a couple times to prevent it foaming over. By the time it had reached room temp it was pretty flat. I even left it in the hydro tube overnight and looked again this morning.
 
I took the brewery tour at Southern Tier this weekend...amazing! Anyway, I found out from the guide that they run every beer through something called a "hopback". It gets run through here between the boil and primary fermentation. This is where the guide said most of the spices are added, though they are added in the boil as well. We as homebrewers don't have this type of equipment, obviously.
Anyway, I was thinking about adding lactose late in the boil or later in the process for that sweetness. I'm also going to try roasting the pumpkin skin on next time. That one flavor I can't nail is the key. I don't think it's Graham cracker extract, but as homebrewers, that might be the route we have to go to achieve that flavor...still though, there's has a warm flavor, even when served cold. Howdtheydothat?!
 
Good info Moody. They call the spices used in pumpkin pie (cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, allspice, ginger) the 'warm' spices. So maybe that's the 'warming' you're talking about.

Yesterday I made two mixes just to see the difference that cloves and allspice made. They were:
4 parts Saigon Cinnamon
2 parts Ginger
1 part Nutmeg
1 part Allspice (mixture #1 only)
1 part Cloves (mixture #2 only)

Biggest thing I learned from it was the added perception of sweetness from the cloves. Allspice more peppery. House smelled wonderful.
 
Have any of you tried this beer? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/imperial-pumpkin-pie-ale-200122/

I'm sure the flavor profile won't be exactly the same (especially since it doesn't have any pumpkin in it) but the simplicity is appealing, the grain bill looks delicious, and the spices will be (I would guess) slightly more distinct but balanced since there won't be quite so much going on as some of the recipes in this thread. I was thinking instead of using lactose that I might just mash at about 158-160 to get a little more residual sweetness towards the finish. Thoughts?
 
My wife and I are homebrewing for the first time this weekend and are coming out swinging starting with a Pumpking clone. We merged the parts of EuBrew and mrames recipes we liked into one. We're huge fans of pumpkin ales and have already gathered all the ingredients and read this entire thread twice pulling out the best ideas we could find. Any suggestions or comments on our recipes are greatly appreciated! All credit to mrames for the "procedures."

Southern Tier Pumking Ale Clone

Ingredients:
• 4 lbs American Crystal 10L Malt (Mash)
• 1.5 lbs Victory Malt (Mash)
• 4 lb pumpkin (roasted & cubed) (Mash)
• 2.5 lb Breiss Pilsen DME (60 min)
• .5 oz. U.S. Northern Brewer(8.6%), (60 min)
• 6 lb Breiss Pilsen DME (30 min-late addition)
• 2 tsp Irish Moss (15 min) (4 tsp if pumpkin melts)
• 1/2 tsp Cinnamon (10 min)
• 1/3 tsp Nutmeg (10 min)
• 1.5 tsp Ginger (ground) (10 min)
• 1/3 tsp Cloves (10 min)
• 1/4 tsp Allspice (10 min)
• 1 oz. Sterling(7%), 10 min
• WLP002 English Ale Yeast
• 1 tsp Vanilla Extract (priming)
• 1 tsp Graham Cracker Extract (priming)
• 11 oz Brown Sugar (priming)

Procedure:
1. Roast the peeled/cubed pumpkin, temper in the oven at 175°.
2. Add Grains & Pumpkin to 5.5 gallon of cold water, heat to 175° T1 00:00
3. Maintain 175° temp for 45 minutes T1 00:45
4. Rinse grain with quart 175° water, bring to boil, slowly add 2.5lbs DME & Hops T2 01:25
5. Boil for 30 minutes and slowly add 6lbs DME (Watch for flame-out) T2 01:55
6. Boil for 15 minutes more and add irish moss T2 02:10
7. Boil for 5 minutes more and add hops and spices T2 02:15
8. Continue until all DME dissolved T2 02:25
9. Finish boil for 10 minute T2 02:35
10. Cool wort from 212° to 70° as quickly as possible T3 02:40
11. Wort at 80° T3 ~03:10
12. Aerate and rack wort into primary fermenter
13. Take SG reading and record. Pitch yeast and seal
 
The only thong i'd say ingredients wise, is that Pumking uses magnum hops at 60 min, and then sterling hops later in the boil. 10 min or so. Since you're doing partial mash, make sure you're putting your pumpkin in a bag for steeping that is similar to the bag you're steeping your specialty grains in. Season that pumpkin with pumpkin pie spice before baking too.
 
I think the key really is the graham cracker flavor. I had a tincture of vanilla, candied ginger and pie spices. Although it smelled great, just wasn't 100% Pumking. After the graham cracker flavor was added...the tincture is spot on in scent. My goal is something in between Punk and Pumking. Think I'll name it Pumking Punk kids!!
 
jessup said:
this is one of the things you'll see year after year about making pumpkin beers. no matter how or when you do it, if you add pumpkin to wort, you lose a LOT of beer in the longrun and rarely get the flavor you're seeking. commercial breweries have much better filtering techniques and equipment so don't worry about it. just remember to use an extra helping of irish moss or gelatin and hope for the best. plan for longer than normal primary & secondary, and perhaps even a third storage for proper clearing. patience:cross: i mean rdwhahb
Click to expand...

Made the same mistake as a lot of people and didn't filter out the pumpkin from my boil. Sanitize a strainer and get the big stuff out or you'll be dealing with some major loss. Let it sit in secondary for a month and you should be good. Patience is key haha Lost a gallon because I didn't strain... bah.
 
Moody_Copperpot said:
How do you prepare a tincture, exactly?
Click to expand...
AFAIK you just add the key ingredient to the alcohol and let it sit for a while. I've only made one; a smoked Habanero tincture for bottling a few from a traditional mead. I just put the smoked Habs in a mason jar with some vodka and let it sit a month. Not sure if you even need to let it sit if using dry/ground spices.
 
jessup said:
this is one of the things you'll see year after year about making pumpkin beers. no matter how or when you do it, if you add pumpkin to wort, you lose a LOT of beer in the longrun and rarely get the flavor you're seeking. commercial breweries have much better filtering techniques and equipment so don't worry about it. just remember to use an extra helping of irish moss or gelatin and hope for the best. plan for longer than normal primary & secondary, and perhaps even a third storage for proper clearing. patience:cross: i mean rdwhahb
Click to expand...

A few posts back I put a recipe my wife and I were going to try. Well Sunday, we brewed it, and had to ad-lib along the way. Getting the pumpkin flavor from the pumpkin without creating a gooey mess was one of our biggest concerns.
We roasted 5 lbs of spiced pumpkin cubes for 30 minutes at 175 and put them in "turkey stuffing bags" and put them in the mash. At the end, they were still stiff so we decided to put them in the boil. Figuring the bags would make the boil take longer, we put them in separate pots and added water, then boiled them separately to extract the flavors. After 20 minutes of boiling, we put the juices into the boil. We tasted the pumpkin when it cooled down and there was no flavor left; I assume this means we were successful at getting the pumpkin taste from them.

Has anyone else tried such a thing? I assume it's similar to making tea from different fruits and veggies.
 
For me its always been the creamy aspect that gives the pumking a different flavor from other pumpkin beers, and I think its primarily the vanilla. I concocted this recipe, although not imperial, added a spice tea and 3/4 ounce of high grade vanilla extract. Its pretty darn close to that creamy flavor I was looking for.

English 2-row Pale malt 42.85714286
Vienna malt 25.71428571
Crystal 60 8.571428571
Toasted flaked oats 5.714285714
Fresh roasted long necked pumpkin 14.28571429

spice tea of 1/2 tsp cinnamon, 1/2 tsp allspice, 1/2 tsp clove, 3/4 tsp ginger added a couple days into the primary ferment

bourbon vanilla added at kegging
 
Yeah, it's that creamy flavor that no one can seem to nail down. It tastes like there is whipped cream on a slice of pumpkin pie when you drink the stuff. They make a whipped cream vodka. Maybe make a tincture using this vodka? How much vodka should be used when making a tincture?
 
Has anyone considered looking at an english style cream ale such as Boddingtons and seeing what gives that such a creamy mouthfeel? There are multiple beers I can think of that seem creamier than beer should be and there has to be a secret to getting that flavor.
 
It's not the creamy mouthfeel though, it actually TASTES like whipped cream or something like that. It's beyond just mouthfeel. It's the white whale, and we are Captain Ahab!
 
Cannondale said:
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.
Click to expand...

So my version of this is kegged, carbed, and officially delicious. I want to enter it into a local homebrew comp in Philly that's coming up - how would you all classify the base recipe for this beer? It's going to go in 21A - Spice, Herb, and Vegetable beer - therefore you have to state what the underlying beer style is. Would it be an Amber ale? Or do you think this is just best suited for the 23 Specialty Beer category?
 
Moody_Copperpot said:
It's not the creamy mouthfeel though, it actually TASTES like whipped cream or something like that. It's beyond just mouthfeel. It's the white whale, and we are Captain Ahab!
Click to expand...

I finally had a chance to sample a fresh Pumpking this weekend.

HOLY DIACETYL! This beer has diacetyl in spades. You can smell and taste it distinctly. In a way it really works with this beer, adding that hint of baked in goodness to the graham cracker crust and pumpkin spice.

A good clone of this will have to have some diacetyl.

-Scott
 
Probably very stupid question, but when using tincture of soaked vanilla beans, do you:

1) add only the vodka the beans were soaked in to the secondary carboy

OR

2) add the vodka and beans to the secondary carboy

Thanks in advance!!!
 
gwdlaw said:
Probably very stupid question, but when using tincture of soaked vanilla beans, do you:

1) add only the vodka the beans were soaked in to the secondary carboy

OR

2) add the vodka and beans to the secondary carboy

Thanks in advance!!!
Click to expand...

Normally you would just add the vodka. One of the advantages of doing a tincture is you can sample it in another beer to determine how strong it is and scale that up to the full batch size.

On the other hand, it shouldn't cause any issues to dump the whole thing in and you would probably get a stronger flavor.
 
HYGBrewin said:
So my version of this is kegged, carbed, and officially delicious. I want to enter it into a local homebrew comp in Philly that's coming up - how would you all classify the base recipe for this beer? It's going to go in 21A - Spice, Herb, and Vegetable beer - therefore you have to state what the underlying beer style is. Would it be an Amber ale? Or do you think this is just best suited for the 23 Specialty Beer category?
Click to expand...

Same with mine. Want to enter it, and wish there was a local comp.
 
Cannondale said:
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.
Click to expand...

This will be my second Pumpkin beer this year. I made a belgian pumpkin earlier in the year that is kegged and I love it! I'll be making this one for Thanksgiving though. I have everything for it, and plan on brewing it on Sunday. I am going to use a green jarrahdale pumpkin to hopefully get a little more pumpkin flavor. I'll be adding it to the mash after I roast the hell out of it (I'm thinking at least an hour at 350 with the skin side up, and covering the inside with either honey or brown sugar), and then skinning and cutting it into 1 - 1.5" cubes before adding it to the mash.

What kinds of ranges did you guys shoot for with your water chemistry?

I'm currently planning on these levels:

Calcium 114 ppm
Mag 24 ppm
Sod 38 ppm
Clor 156 ppm
Sulfate 195 ppm

Chloride/Sulfate Ratio: .8

I'm hoping for more of a well rounded flavor with this water profile, but I'm new to water adjustment... any thoughts?
 
foltster said:
I finally had a chance to sample a fresh Pumpking this weekend.

HOLY DIACETYL! This beer has diacetyl in spades. You can smell and taste it distinctly. In a way it really works with this beer, adding that hint of baked in goodness to the graham cracker crust and pumpkin spice.

A good clone of this will have to have some diacetyl.

-Scott
Click to expand...

You are the second person to mention diacetyl, and I just don't get it. At all.
 
I brewed this almost exactly per the recipe, and it is almost dead on! Perfect flavor and very creamy. Needs maybe one more week in the bottle. I'll post exact recipe soon.


Cannondale said:
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.
Click to expand...
 
Ok gang, I've been holding off on posting this until I transferred into secondary to see how it tasted. Thursday night, I put a sample of Pumking side by side with my beer for a taste test. My three taste testers couldn't tell the difference.

OG: 1.080
FG (when added to secondary): 1.018
Approx: 8.3 % abv

I have to credit "Cannondale" for the original recipe that I copied. Here are the ingredients:

Fermentables:
14 lbs 2-Row American Pale Malt
1 lb Victory
12 oz Crystal 80L
2 lbs pumpkin (small Cinderella pumpkin, skinned, cubed and baked for 45 minutes at 350 degrees, mashed (little water added) and coated with honey, then cooked another 45 minutes at 350 - then cooled to 154 degrees to be added to mash)

3/4 lb Demerara Sugar (added to boil after hot break)
1/4 lb Light Brown Sugar (added to boil after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz Magnum Hops @ 60 min
1/4 oz Sterling @ 15 min

Additives:
8 oz Lactose @ 15 min
1/2 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min
1 Whirlfloc Tab @ 10 min
2 tbsp fine chopped candied ginger @ 5 min
3 Ceylon cinnamon sticks (real cinnamon sticks ordered online)
1/2 tsp whole cloves @ 5 min
1/2 tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2 tsp Allspice @ 5 min

Added to Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (2 fresh beans split down middle, scraped and soaked in 4 oz vodka for 2 weeks - Vodka added to secondary)
1 tsp. Pumpkin Pie Spice
1 tsp. Capella water soluble Graham Cracker Extract (purchased online and added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Mashed at 154 degrees for 90 minutes (no sparge using 10 gallon Home Depot water cooler)

Boiled for 60 minutes.

Fermented at 66 degrees for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary.

Granted, the beer is still in secondary, and may taste a little different when it comes out, is conditioned and bottled, but if everything stays remotely the same . . . I'd call it an exact clone.

I've read the posts about replicating the "graham cracker" taste of Pumking. In my opinion, the secret is the Capella Graham Cracker Extract. Before it was added, the beer was very good, but missing something. After the addition, it was SPOT ON!!!

In fact, to make sure I have an adequate supply, I am planning on brewing a second batch to last through the holidays.

Thanks to Cannondale and all the other members of Homebrewtalk.com. This was my first attempt at home brewing and it turned out exceptional!! Couldn’t have done it without the advice of everyone on this forum.

Cheers!!!!!!
 
great post GWD. the 4.5 gallons that i ended up w/ 2 weeks ago is already gone after all our friends wanted to get some after having a taste... definitely like the idea of splitting the sugar into demerara and brown. also will have to definitely try the grahm cracker extract. many thanks for the tweaked recipe and feedback!
 
foltster said:
Have you tasted it in other beers before? Some people can't taste that particular (intentional in this case) off-flavor.
Click to expand...
Uh, yeah. And that is why I said you are only the second person, ever, that I have seen/heard say that they can detect diacetyl. I get that you think you taste it, but I don't taste it. I would think that they would have that showing up in some of their other beers, because it would be something in their process. I haven't seen anybody say that about any of their other lineup, so I'm going out on a limb with people thinking they know what they are tasting, but really don't.
 
Brewing this today. Going to use Libby's canned pumpkin with rice hulls. Should I use one 29oz can or two? I think it doesn't matter since most of the flavor is coming from spices/extracts, but I thought I should ask.

Ordered some of the Graham Cracker Extract, but I won't need that until secondary.
 
Use real pumpkin and throw it in the boil for the last 20 minutes. Canned pumpkin is a gnarly mess to deal with and it absorbs way more than it's fair share of wort.
 
I just did a pumpkin ale - threw the (real) pumpkin in the boil for the full 90 min. Pumpkin soaked up quite a bit of wort and, as a result, dropped my OG several points. However, the pumpkin was now deliciously sweet and quickly found its way into a pie.
 
BudzAndSudz said:
Use real pumpkin and throw it in the boil for the last 20 minutes. Canned pumpkin is a gnarly mess to deal with and it absorbs way more than it's fair share of wort.
Click to expand...

Well, I've used canned pumpkin before and had no such problems. Same thing last night - two 29oz cans, 8oz of rice hulls. No sparge problems, no mess, no absorbing wort (I don't know why it would - it's not dry like grain. It has plenty of moisture content).

Sent from my iPhone 4S using HB Talk
 
I wouldn't put the pumpkin in the boil. I've put it in the mash, and that's what Southern Tier does too. It's purée pumpkin, says so right in the bottle. Plus when I took the tour of their brewery a few weeks back,the guide said it goes in the mash.
 

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