Sour yeast blend

[ttaylor2258]

Hey all! I'm going to attempt to brew my first sour sometime in the next month. I should be able to get a hold of pretty much any kind of used wine barrel that I want, which is awesome. I'm probably going with a Pinot Noir barrel.

I've yet to come up with a recipe, more research is needed.

However, I've been quite good at harvesting yeast from other beers and growing them. Just for the hell of it, I've taken the left over yeast from a few bottles and have grown it into enough to pitch. The beers I've cultivated my yeast from are:

Russian River Redemption
Russian River Damnation (x2 bottles)
Russian River Supplication (x2 bottles)
Almanac Farmers Reserve #3 Wild Ale
Cantillon 100% Lambic Bio

I basically swirled the remaining beer from redemption and damnation one night and put them in my Erlenmeyer flask. I then had a supplication soon after. I brewed up a quick starter sized batch and added it to the flask to let it do it's thing. Over time I added another damnation, supplication, the almanac and the Cantillon to the flask. I then cold crashed it for a long time and poured off the top (some minor funk). I then remade another yeast starter and poured it on top of the yeast cake. Again, it took off and now I've got a size-able yeast layer. I sampled it and it smells like the Cantillon lambic and tastes like a supplication, all with just a cup of DME. Like it really needs little else!

So, the long winded way of asking my question is this; Can I ferment with this yeast blend, or should I use another normal strand, then add my creation when I rack it to the wine barrel? My guess is that it's got enough brewers yeast to ferment?




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[dantheman13]

Most folks will tell you that you are taking a risk with just using bottle dregs that you've grown up. You really have no idea what is in there. It could just be a bunch of champagne yeast for example, and/or the population of organisms that is alive in the bottle probably isn't the same population that made these really wonderful commercial sour beers. There are remnants in there for sure, but that doesn't promise a good beer with the population you've grown up.

Personally, I think bottle dreg beers are great, but I wouldn't gamble a 5+ gallon batch on it alone. To be safe, you can pitch a commercial sour blend like the Roeselare Ale Blend 3763, wait for that blend's Sacch to finish it's primary fermentation, then pitch your culture. You can also pitch both at the same time, which I would do to hopefully get the bacteria from your culture some access to those simple sugars, but you could also be giving champagne yeast an advantage (if there is champagne yeast in those bottles).

Because of the gamble you take with bottle dreg cultures, I prefer to brew 1 gallon first with those, then use the yeast cake to make a larger batch if it turns out good.

 

[BryanThompson]

I always like to add some yeast when I pitch started dregs. Just to make sure the bulk of the fermentation will get done quickly enough to fight off anything that will taste bad. Belgian strains are supposed to be good for producing esters that will be transformed into the funky stuff you are looking for.

 

[Thorpe429]

I've made plenty of sours in the past using nothing but bottle dregs and have had very good results. If you're pitching the dregs from that many bottles and seem to have made a bit of a starter, you should be in good shape. Russian River and Cantillon dregs work quite well. Redemption and Damnation only have Belgian strains -- no Brett or bacteria -- but should work well with the other things that you're including.

 

[TNGabe]

So, the long winded way of asking my question is this; Can I ferment with this yeast blend, or should I use another normal strand, then add my creation when I rack it to the wine barrel? My guess is that it's got enough brewers yeast to ferment?

This isnt a yes or no kinda thing. You can go for any of the options you've presented, but will likely encounter different results.

I fermented a 6 gallon batch with only dregs and no starter in November. It was mostly lambic dregs, but a few other sour beers made it in there too. I saw about 5 days of lag with temps in the mid 50s and when I sampled it after three months, was tasting very 'lambicy' already, and had reached about 75% attentuation. I 'pitched' that batch and some fresh bottle dregs into about 50 gallons of wort in a barrel this weekend and I'll top it off once the initial fermentation slows down.

What sort of beer do you have in mind? I went with fake lambic because I didn't have enough beer ready to fill the barrel, wanted something I was confortable fermenting in the barrel, and had the starter batch ready to pitch.

Homebrewers frequently like to pitch everything at once for better souring results, but a barrel provides a better environment than a carboy. For my next barrel, I'm planning a clean ferment followed by adding the bugs & critters when the beer is transferred to the barrel.

 

[Fermented_minds]

I've made plenty of sours in the past using nothing but bottle dregs and have had very good results. If you're pitching the dregs from that many bottles and seem to have made a bit of a starter, you should be in good shape. Russian River and Cantillon dregs work quite well. Redemption and Damnation only have Belgian strains -- no Brett or bacteria -- but should work well with the other things that you're including.

Pretty good synopsis right here. Dregs can be in pretty piss-poor shape, especially from older or higher gravity beers. But if you're getting a starter going, you should be building up a pretty decent population for your fermentation. Good luck OP!

 

[ttaylor2258]

Thank you all for the replies!

Some very valuable info here. I think the safest route is to pitch my blend with a vial of white labels WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix since I'm nearby the White Labs facility. I have little doubts about the blend I've made, the small sample it produced was already tart with some good funk and that was after just a few weeks. I've had zero issues fermenting a full batch with just dregs that I've cultivated before. (Again from a bottle of damnation)

I'm not exactly going for a supplication clone, but that's the direction that I want this beer to go.


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[TNGabe]

Thank you all for the replies!

Some very valuable info here. I think the safest route is to pitch my blend with a vial of white labels WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix since I'm nearby the White Labs facility. I have little doubts about the blend I've made, the small sample it produced was already tart with some good funk and that was after just a few weeks. I've had zero issues fermenting a full batch with just dregs that I've cultivated before. (Again from a bottle of damnation)

I'm not exactly going for a supplication clone, but that's the direction that I want this beer to go.


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The White Labs blend won't add anything to your mix. Someone emailed WL recently for a cell count on their brett and blends. I'll post the exact number if I can find it again, but it's not much. If you're looking for sacc to throw off some esters for the brett later on go with one of their classic Belgian strains like 550 or 530.

 

[dcp27]

I've made plenty of sours in the past using nothing but bottle dregs and have had very good results. If you're pitching the dregs from that many bottles and seem to have made a bit of a starter, you should be in good shape. Russian River and Cantillon dregs work quite well. Redemption and Damnation only have Belgian strains -- no Brett or bacteria -- but should work well with the other things that you're including.

same here, never had any issues. should be totally fine without anything extra, esp with the redemption & damnation dregs in there.