Sour Saison worries

[ShackNasty]

Five days ago I brewed 4 gal of a saison - OG 1.040. I brewed as normal with a normal mash, sparge, boil, etc...

After my boil I pitched a 300mL apple juice starter of Lacto, and less then 6 hours later there was a krausen formed and lots of airlock activity. I have been checking the pH daily, and after five days my pH is ONLY down to 4.4, while the gravity is down to 1.010. I really wanted to wait until my pH got below 4 to pitch my farmhouse yeast, but if I wait any longer there won't be any more sugar for the yeast to consume. Were my expectations of the pH dropping below 4 in less then four days unrealistic?

Also, tasting samples of the wort/beer there is a faint sourness, but not nearly what I was hoping for.

Will the pH continue to lower? Will the sourness continue to increase even once all fermentables have been consumed? I fear the answer is no, but thought I would ask some of you who have been there.

Thanks!

 

[loftybrewer]

Realizing personal preference requires multiple attempts. I say pitch NOW. It's not like you bought a 20 gallon grain bill. Try it this way, and then try a sour mash, or let the lacto go for longer - next time. 50 different ppl on this forum can tell you how to make a sour beer, but it's like playin' the blues vs. singin' the blues. No one can truly tell you how. You sing what you know. First, you got to know it. I've made failed sours, and I'm sure everyone who frequents this particular forum has done the same. The spectrum of sour goes from utterly subtle to ridiculously mouth-puckering. Your particular question is a matter of personal preference, and you can only answer it after you try the beer that you've made. Make a choice. Then do something different next time.

 

[smokinghole]

Was it white labs or wyeast? I only ask because I did an unhopped half batch with the intention of souring and then blending with the other half that was hopped to provide an overall blend IBU of about 15. Well the unboiled lacto only half got real gross real fast. I eventually blended and left to sit for nearly a year. The grossness aged out and it's a nicely sour wheat ale. This doesn't sound like whats happening to you though.

The last saison I did was with a lacto isolate I worked up from another yeast culture. It was a strong lacto (well what I assumed to be lacto) and soured a beer at 8% and 35ibus. It never got ropy so I'm sure it wasn't a pedio strain or something else. Anyhow with that said even for as strong as a strain as I had I only ever got a mild sourness from this when pitched with a blend of saison strains. I can tell is has a little lacto background and other people that have not drank sour beers identify it as a sour beer. However it's mildly tart. I doubt I would have gotten anywhere with a WL or WY strain of lacto in this beer.

For other options that I've personally tried you can do a high percentage of acidulated malt. I mashed at about 150 with the normal grains and 2% of the acid malt. Then after 30 min I added the rest of the acid malt which brought up the percentage of acid to pils to 25%. That beer was fermented with a similar blend of saison yeast as well as some brett (I forget what). It ended up more sour tasting but more of a tangy yogurt like sourness. It evolved to a cleaner sour flavor over a few months but not good enough to the point I wanted to make something like that again.

The pH drop to under 4 in 4 days is not totally unrealistic, however it depends on the strain used. I used a lactobacillus plantarum strain in some unhopped wort once and went from 5.6 ph to 3.2 over about 4 days or less. Never brewed with this species solo yet, I have only done small test ferments. Go to a fairly hippy oriented store and look for Good Belly products. I'd get the straight shot brand or the coconut juice and use some next time in conjunction with the yeast. Otherwise I'd suggest a full on sour culture with pedio and brett, or a sour mash. Obviously a pedio/brett culture can take up to six months or a bit more. My experience with a low gravity saison like grist mashed for fermentability yields a much faster turn around at closer to six months vs a year.

 

[ShackNasty]

Thanks all.

I cannot say specifically whether the Lacto is WL of WY. I procured it from a friend who in turn procured it from a profession brewer in Oregon, who only brews mixed fermentation ales and such. I do have more of it in a few vials.

At this point I plan on just letting it sit and taste it periodically every couple weeks or so. This is the first step in what hopefully turns into a lot of sour brewing and different microbes.

One factor I did not consider was the temp at which the Lacto fermented. I see lots of people working to keep it at or above 100F. Mine was at a fairly constant 82-85 degrees (still is). I wonder if a stronger sour character would come across with higher temps. I guess that is the change I will try once I brew Mk. II of this. I would also probably pitch a larger starter to see if that produces a stronger tart, sour character.

Like I said, it's a process.