Sour Imperial Stout ECY02

[smokinghole]

I've decided to do a sour stout. Each year I brew an imperial stout to share with family the Christmas holiday season the year after I brew. So this batch I'm bottling next month was brewed in October of 2012. These have been fermented with brett lately. I've been toying with the idea of a full on bacteria laden funky sour stout. With last year's RIS coming out of the 15 gal barrel it's been resting in, I decided to brew up the next beer to live in the barrel.

Mash was made thick and mashed high at 160. I ended up a little low on my first mash efficiency so I bumped up the second mash sparged more and boiled twice as long. That should average me out between the two brews around 1.095 when blended together in the barrel. This is a crystal/caramel heavy recipe, with a bit of roasted barley and some midnight wheat.

I have only drank two sour stouts. Those being the Jolly Pumpkin, and the Tart of Darkness. The JP was a bit aggressive on the roast and the Tart of Darkness was a bit lacking stout characteristics. It was basically a black flanders red if you ask me, just like one would brew a black IPA. Then Morebeer came out with the Tart of Darkness recipe. I was originally just going to brew that and I saw the recipe and decided to brew my own only tweaking the recipe to add midnight wheat and darker crystal for more roast than ToD but smoother than the JP.

I'm not going for through the roof acidity and think I will end up with what I'm looking for no problem. Two years ago I brewed a 1.080 oud bruin that soured just fine with ECY20 and I would wager he uses much the same bacteria for the most part among his blends. All yeast/bacteria listed is working together. I'm not a ferment with a boring clean ale yeast and then add souring culture type of guy. Actually due to my ground water temp being higher than idea for chilling I cooled to about 85F and then added the goodbelly Lactobacillus plantarum culture to let it sit over night. The pH went from 4.72 to 4.59 in 18 hours before I added the T58. The reason for choosing t-58 is it's ability to ferment properly (no awful off flavors) at warm temps and well I didn't want to dick around with a starter for 18 gal of 1.095 beer.

So far starting pH is 4.72 from a completed boil. I'm almost embarrassed to share the recipe. I tend to work with 2-3 ingredients and for the most part 4 tops. I was using up some crystal I had on hand from another brew I never did. Plus I want the crystal so I can hopefully end up closer to 1.012-1.015 for a final gravity. I want body and sweetness to remain with the sourness in this beer and it worked for me using a buttload of crystal on my flanders red last year. This was a perfect brew to use up some left over crystal malts.

I mostly want to see how much it will sour since this is a few steps beyond where I've gone with a souring culture. I know there's a bunch of robots on this site and others that repeat "high gravity and IBUs over 10 won't sour". Well high gravity and IBUs over 10 does sour and it sours just fine. I'll document the pH at racking and probably every 3-4 months to watch it drop. I don't want to steal too much of the beer for pH readings though so we'll see.

Sour Stout Mash 1
Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin
Type: All Grain Date: 3/2/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 9.00 gal Brewer: Adam Cole
Boil Size: 12.54 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 120 min Equipment: Penrose Kettle (18Gal) and Cooler (13Gal)
End of Boil Volume 10.14 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 8.50 gal Est Mash Efficiency 81.6 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
20 lbs Goldpils Vienna (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 63.7 %
2 lbs Cara 20 (Dingemans) (23.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.4 %
2 lbs Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.4 %
2 lbs Midnight Wheat (550.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.4 %
2 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.4 %
1 lbs Black Barley (530.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.2 %
1 lbs Cara 45 (Dingemans) (47.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.2 %
6.2 oz Carabohemian (75.0 SRM) Grain 8 1.2 %
1.50 oz Legacy [7.80 %] - First Wort 120.0 min Hop 9 20.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg Flemish Ale (East Coast Yeast #ECY02) [50.00 ml] Yeast 11 -
1.0 pkg Good Belly Straight Shot Yeast 12 -
1.0 pkg SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL/Fermentis #T-58) [23.66 ml] Yeast 13 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.092 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.095 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.026 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.8 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 11.3 %
Bitterness: 20.4 IBUs Calories: 327.0 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 59.2 SRM
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Flanders Mash Total Grain Weight: 31 lbs 6.2 oz
Sparge Water: 8.59 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash Step Add 8.40 gal of water at 159.8 F 145.0 F 15 min
Mash Step Decoct 2.49 gal of mash and boil it 160.0 F 30 min

Sparge Step: Fly sparge with 8.59 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[smokinghole]

Primary brought the gravity down to 1.034ish and 1.040ish for mash 1 and mash 2 respectively. Mash 2 was higher gravity than mash 1 due to a unexpected efficiency loss due to the first time use of that malt for my base. I sparged a lot more and boiled for at least twice as long on the second batch to make up my gravity loss on the first mash. Both batches will transfer to a waxed 15 gallon barrel in August after I bottle the beer up that is in the barrel. With the alcohol near 8%abv already we'll see how this goes.

 

[J343MY]

Bellwoods (Toronto brewery) just released a sour imperial stout brewed in collaboration with Evil Twin. It was also soured with ECY02, and spent about 6-8 months in barrels. It was sour, but it was a fairly subtle sourness. Being over 9% probably prevented it from souring a lot more.

With a little patience, I think you will end up with a nice beer. Personally I preferred a friends sour stout that was just over 5% because it was more sour.

I'm planning to brew my own sour stout with ECY02 sometime in the next few weeks.

 

[smokinghole]

That's pretty awesome to hear. I thought about going lower but wanted to see how this played out. The oude bruin I made two years ago made was actually 1.084 (small difference from what I wrote above at 1.080) I think so it's not much lower than this imperial stout and it soured pretty nicely. I'm really going for some sourness but not as much as a good flanders red sourness.

 

[TNGabe]

I brewed a strong stoutish beer with t-58 and ecy02 back in april. It got pretty warm and went nuts and I lost a lot of beer to blow off, have about 4.5 gallons left now. Doesn't look like I took a reading when I transfered, but it started at 1.092.

I was just thinking about trying a quad with the same combo when I saw this thread, actually drinking the beer I sent you to plate out. I'll pull a sample from my batch and report back.

 

[TNGabe]

Tastes like a chocolate covered funkberry! Really well developed beer for being so young and surprisingly no off flavors. Quite tart.

 

[milldoggy]

I have a sour dark wheat stout on ecy20. About a year and half old, want to trade? I am about to keg and bottle.

 

[smokinghole]

I'm feeling better and better. What kind of hopping did you guys with IBU wise? I tried to find posts of people that did this but couldn't. I knew it didn't mean it no one did it, just no one posted up about doing a stout like this.

That culture you sent me to plate isn't forgotten. I will grab an extra plate from the lab guys at work and do it at home. Less than ideal but it'll work.

 

[TNGabe]

I'm feeling better and better. What kind of hopping did you guys with IBU wise? I tried to find posts of people that did this but couldn't. I knew it didn't mean it no one did it, just no one posted up about doing a stout like this.

That culture you sent me to plate isn't forgotten. I will grab an extra plate from the lab guys at work and do it at home. Less than ideal but it'll work.

Don't worry about the culture. It was more curiosity than anything. Drink the beer though, it's pretty tasty.

I didn't seem to write down what I did for hops, recipe has grain bill, notes, etc, but no hops. I think I used an ounce or maybe 2 of brewers gold, so beer is probably only 15-25 ibu

 

[smokinghole]

Well I transferred the beer to the barrel yesterday. One fermentor was not sick and one fermentor was very sick. I had to basically pump half the sick fermentor using the auto siphon. The gravity blended was 1.041 but the sickness is most certainly throwing off the hydrometer. Even if its nearer to 1.030 there is still plenty of gravity for the souring culture to work down.

 

[smokinghole]

I have a sour dark wheat stout on ecy20. About a year and half old, want to trade? I am about to keg and bottle.

I will certainly trade, it'll be a year or more though till I am ready to do Mich if anything about bottling.

I have other sour stuff and big Brett stouts in bottles right now.

 

[BryanThompson]

I know there's a bunch of robots on this site and others that repeat "high gravity and IBUs over 10 won't sour". Well high gravity and IBUs over 10 does sour and it sours just fine. I'll document the pH at racking and probably every 3-4 months to watch it drop. I don't want to steal too much of the beer for pH readings though so we'll see.

I agree with you here. I have three five gallon batches of an Imperial Flanders Red/Brown that the OG ranged from 1.090 to 1.110 and all around 8-15 IBU and they are souring wonderfully. Now I just need to get me a Corsair 15 gallon barrel and I will be in business

 

[smokinghole]

Well I decided to not bust out the pH meter but I did take a gravity sample. It's still a bit ropy and thick at this point so the gravity is not very accurate but its measuring in at 1.0305. It smells amazing at this point. It has acidity but its not slightly covered by the roast at this point. This beer rocks so far I can't wait until it's ready for bottling and drinking.

 

[TNGabe]

Have you done other big beers with ECY02? From what I've got going now, I'm not sure it will really do much past about 10% abv. It could just be because my cellar is cool this time of year, but I checked one of mine the other day and it's been stable at 1.019 for about 3 months now.

 

[smokinghole]

This is my first big beer with ECY02 I thought I'd give it a try. I'm glad I did. I would guess the gravity is closer to 1.020 and not 1.030 but the viscosity of the beer from the pedio is throwing the hydrometer off. The shouldn't get over 10% but we'll see where it ends. I am hoping it will stop close to where it is and just consume the exopolysaccharide from the bacteria then I can just let it condition for another six months or more possibly in a sanke half barrel with a 4" TC that I want to buy or make. After that I'll throw a low gravity flanders brown in the barrel to use up more of the barrel character. There isn't a ton of barrel left right now but I eventually want to just ferment non-barrel flavored beers in the barrel.

 

[smokinghole]

Checked this again recently. It hasn't changed much, tastes good with a nice acidity. I might drop some of my saison/lambic culture in there to help the ECY02 out a bit.

 

[smokinghole]

Lambic culture went in a week or two ago, finally remembered, and it got active again. ECY02 seems to not do so well in this beer of this gravity. The aroma is amazing. I think a year in the barrel is enough. So I will rack it into stainless soon as soon as I brew a beer to refill the barrel. I might add fruit to a portion depending on how fast the rope clears up thanks to my souring mercenaries.

 

[smokinghole]

Well it's been only a few weeks and I took a pipette sample yesterday which showed a great decrease in viscosity since adding my souring culture. So today I grabbed a gravity measurement and I'm sitting at 1.025. I got a 5 point drop in a months time with my misfit mistreated culture in a month, hopefully it doesn't keep going much further. The aroma is pretty killer. If it took orders I'd tell it to stop right here.....

 

[smokinghole]

No additional gravity movement since last check. Beer is sitting 1.025-1.026 with a pH near 3.1 ( I need new calibration solutions). Started at 1.092 back in July 2013 and has been in a barrel since August I think.

The flavor is nice. Admittedly a little overwhelming on first,sip but by the third sip my mouth adjusts and the beer smooth out. Not bad at all for a 9.5%abv sour. It has spades of aging potential, luckily I have just under 15 gal worth.