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Yes, sometimes regulation is a good thing.

While populist anti-regulation sentiments abound, we cannot trust that all business owners are honest, self-policing and are looking out for the welfare of their employees.

Mercury is being dumped by the trainload into the Savannah River here by Olin chemical. But it's below the legal threshold... wait, what??

and we are talking about the health and welfare of fellow human beings above our own needs and desires.
 
I can understand a smoking ban in restaurants. I whole-heartedly disagreee with it, but I can understand it.

But in bars? It's not like they're exactly health clubs, with or without smoking.

The argument about the employees might hold water if the overwhelming majority of them weren't slipping out back for a smoke on their break anyway.

Back when the smoking ban debate was going on in Iowa, there were many bars that went smoke-free. They went back very quickly. Why? They lost too many customers. Sure, there may only be 1 in 5 smokers across America as a whole, but that's entirely irrelevant. The numbers are much, much different amongst Americans who are also regular bar patrons. And it's the regulars that keep bars in business, not the people who go to one 2 or 3 times a year for a special night out....

I've not had a single bar owner tell me that they didn't lose business as a result of the smoking ban. And I've talked to a lot of them. And they didn't lose business over a period of time, they lost it that very weekend, the first weekend after the ban went into effect, and it's stayed down ever since.

"But the economy!" you say. Well, yeah, the economy sucks, but history tells us that bars generally do BETTER business when times are hard. Depressed people drink more. People under a lot of stress drink more. Go figure. Who woulda thunk it?

All those arguments aside, though, the part that really gets to me is the undeniable fact that the ****ing government already has their nose in WAY too much of my business as it is. I have zero tolerance for them getting even more involved in my day to day life, for any reason, regardless of what the arguments may be. I'm 40 years old, I don't need a goddamn mother****ing babysitter.

And don't even get me started on smoking bans in OUTDOOR areas! Anyone who thinks those are a good idea is just whiny-ass ***** and would probably be better off just staying home where they can carefully control every aspect of their environment.
 
Almost every bar owner gripes about lost revenue. Our city's ban is 1 year on the books. The first month many had lower revenue but it has climbed in each case since and are now at greater seasonal levels.
 
I have to agree with subliminal urge. It backs up my thoughts on the subject. I'm 55 & IDGARA!! A bar is a place to relax,maybe even where everybody does know your name. And yes,I actually have drunk at the cheers bar set in the Hollywood museum. It's a fully functioning bar where we drank with the one Bridges son that was in Rocket Man!! Drank beer,& watched football. Great time.
 
unionrdr said:
A bar is a place to relax
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I agree. Which is why I'm thrilled that inconsiderate addicts (let's be real... that's what most smokers are) are no longer able to make me choke on their own damn poison.
 
emjay said:
I agree. Which is why I'm thrilled that inconsiderate addicts (let's be real... that's what most smokers are) are no longer able to make me choke on their own damn poison.
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She says as she chugs down her equally toxic poison.

Goddamn, I do love me some hypocrisy from time to time!!!!

Now this is getting fun. :D
 
subliminalurge said:
She says as she chugs down her equally toxic poison.

Goddamn, I do love me some hypocrisy from time to time!!!!
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Not hypocritical. I'm not picking up my beer and throwing it in people's faces...

Also, I really don't drink that much. Even on the days I do drink, it's one or two beers, which is considered to beneficial overall. But that's irrelevant. Point is, if I have a beer, I am the only one consuming it. If I have a cigarette, the whole room is now partaking.
 
subliminalurge said:
So we have these laws sweeping the nation that have nothing to do with what the majority want, just politicians cowtowing to a VERY vocal, VERY bitchy, VERY whiny minority.
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first i'd like to say that i laughed the whole time i was reading this post. (not sure if it was with you or not:drunk:)

but to this point. i would think that if politicians were catering to a minority then they would stand to gain something from it (like money from tobacco companies?). what would they gain from helping the minority?
 
yeah, thats why i was laughing. i thought it had to be a joke. this guy was RAGING. i felt like i was getting eye raped just reading it.
 
call me simple but if i were lookin' fer votes i'd be tryin' to make the majoruhty happy. :confused:
 
Ya know, I'm not quite old enough to consider myself "old" just yet. I'm only 40.

And this conversation is happening on a message board dedicated to a hobby that was a federal crime just a few short years ago, back when I was in school.

And yet there are people, even here, who not only welcome government intrusion into their day to day lives, but actually ask for more.

And this is all happening in a place that would not even be legal if it weren't for the government backing off just a little bit, on this one small issue. But people, even here, just want them to dive right back in.

That makes me sad. Very, very sad.

That's all I have to say. I'm done with this discussion.
 
subliminalurge said:
Good. Thank you.

It was meant to be, to people of your ilk....
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Yeah, my 'ilk' are people who don't call each other names on a homebrewing forum. You might try it. Name calling and bluster are either a sign that someone doesn't have much an argument, or doesn't have the ability to persuasively make the argument.
 
subliminalurge said:
She says as she chugs down her equally toxic poison.

Goddamn, I do love me some hypocrisy from time to time!!!!

Now this is getting fun. :D
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Seriously? You think sitting next to someone who's having a beer is THE SAME as sitting in a smoke filled bar??

I'm not even responding further.

Ok, I get the point. Honestly, though, is there no way to make your point without calling people names? That's generally frowned upon here.

I know the bar downtown had a big slowdown when the ban took effect, but I think they have rebounded to some degree at least.

Then I look at some of the "nice" places, like brewpubs, and I see expansion in their taprooms. All of them that I can think of anyway.

It would be interesting to have some comparison numbers to see how things really are. I think they younger people are less likely to want to hang out at a smoke filled bar. They just want to drop X and party.
 
in the uk the bans been in force for a few years, its great! bars are now much nicer places to be. true, the uk pub market is having a rough old time of it at the moment, but thats down to many other reasons(pubco's excessive tax, everyone wanting a slice of the pie, supermarkets selling 24 500ml cans for £10...) not just the ban wish it had started 20 years earlier

and yes im a smoker...
 
unionrdr said:
A bar is a place to relax,maybe even where everybody does know your name.
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...and you need to smoke to have this type of atmosphere, or to participate in it?

I think this is more your perception of what make a good bar atmosphere what actually makes it good.
 
Wow. What are the requirements for someone to be banned from HBT? Numerous instances of "namecalling, obscenities, and trolling" aren't enough?
 
Usually when I add my 2 cents anywhere the conversation dies down, so here I am :ban: Feel the power of my thread killing banana.

Anyway, kidding aside when I was a smoker I had very definite opinions on smoking bans and the way they limit individual freedoms. I grew up with 2 smokers (going home to see the fam now I realize I grew up awash in a sea of smoke.)

So first the ban in bars happened, and I cursed Bloomberg up and down... and found bars that "allowed" smoking after hours. I even watched an incident where a non smoker got into a fight with the bartender over this policy, and I laughed at him audibly when he got his clock cleaned (he did throw the first punch, but still). And then the cops started handing out tickets after 11pm, so even those bars started disallowing it. So now I could only smoke in my house and on the street. Forget getting a cigarette break at work. When I would get home my now-fiance would give me a full half hour alone to smoke because I was nic-fitting so hard that I thought I was going to put holes in the walls.

Until the day someone at work offered me a nicotene lozenge. Suddenly I wasnt furious at work, and I was also climbing stairs without getting winded. I stayed on the lozenges for way too long... 2 years, before I made an effort to stop those. That was 6 months ago, and I havent been smoking or taking nicotene at all in that time, I guess Im cured.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of people pretending they know what is best for other people... I understand how that could make someone crazy enough to start name calling (and thereby invalidate their entire argument), but I know for me it was pressure I needed to quit. The ban by our... sigh... our mayor was imposed because he thinks he knows what is best for people who arent as wonderful as he is... but it had the side effect of actually decreasing smoking, or leading to it. Business in bars dipped, but then bounced before the recession, and the number of smokers in the city dipped permanentaly (it would seem).

Now with all that said, that if you are one of these hipster pukes who likes to tell anyone who will listen how "smoking is disgusting!" right before snorting a rail of coke (seen it happen) you had best hope I am not the only person around should you fall on the train tracks. I'll have a previous engagement that will preclude your rescue.

The argument that if someone doesnt like working there they can quit is a non-starter for me. I am not prepared to get into why, thats a whole new soap box to stand on, but I will say that decent and intelligent people sometimes have flawed logic.

So, I guess my thesis is I hated the smoking ban until it did good things for myself and the people around me.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
The argument that if someone doesnt like working there they can quit is a non-starter for me. I am not prepared to get into why, thats a whole new soap box to stand on, but I will say that decent and intelligent people sometimes have flawed logic.
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This.

Anybody who makes this claim clearly has an absolute lack of perspective. It's actually such an absurd notion that it borders on delusional. It just screams belief bias, and must require an astonishing lack of empathy to seriously assert it.
 
on the other hand, if you started working there when it was a smoking bar, why would you expect it to change because you don't smoke? i don't like the reek of cologne coming from abercrombie, so i don't work there. i couldn't start working there and then expect them to quit spraying cologne everywhere.

don't get me wrong, i think people have the right to a healthy work environment, but i also think that if smokers want a place (and a bar owner wants to give it to them) that they can smoke inside and drink i think that should be their deal.

on the other, other hand (i can have as many as i want, they're hypothetical) i'm still glad that its becoming illegal because i recently quit, and the less people i see smoking the less i want a cigarette.

i can see both sides, its just hard to say cut and dry whats the best way to go about it.
 
Well I do think it is different in that part of abercrombie's business is selling the fragrance product. If you had arthritic hands, perhaps court stenographer is a poor job choice, for example. I'd agree that you wouldnt work at Nat Sherman's if you hated cigarette smoke (though their vent systems there are amazing), and I agree that if you wanted to open a bar or lounge (ie a cigar bar) for and run by smokers you should be able to get a special permit... but should one of the prereqs for making a living at any old bar or restaurant be the constant threat of illness?
 
nice. i like the permit idea. then everyone could get what they wanted. i'm definitely not all about catering to smokers, its not anyone elses problem if you want to fill your lunges with poison. but i do like having freedoms. allowing for a permit should satisfy most people (can't satisfy everyone). what is Nat Shermans? (i'm from a hic town in SC :D )
 
Depends how the permit works. I mean, every place that sells alcohol already needs a license/permit, so what's stopping them all from getting a smoking one too, in effect just reversing the smoking ban?

I suppose you could limit the amount of permits issued, but that would be incredibly unfair.

Maybe make it *EXTRMELY* expensive? That would introduce a bit of balance. Much of the costs would be passed on to the customers (ie smokers), which would really just make it another sin tax.
 
Its a specialty tobacco shop. When I was 22 it is a lot of fun to go there and act like a cultured cigar smoker and solve the world's problems with likeminded... actually... it was a lot like hanging out here ;-). Seriously, 50 people smoking and no cloud of smoke.
 
Also for the record my "permits" idea is more "the way things should be" than "the way things can be practically speaking". The latter often trumps the former.
 
Smoke shops are allowed in MI. Not just a place that sells cigars, etc. It has to have a fully closed off area designated for smoking. Not sure if there is a permit required.

So a bar might be able to have a smoking section, but it would need to be separate from the bar area completely and designated to be a smoking room (club).

Since I don't smoke and don't care, I didn't bother to read the fine print, but it's out there for review.
 
We (as in society, government, regulatory agencies) have an obligation to maintain reasonably save working conditions. Can't build with asbestos etc. We regulate industrial usage of harmful chemicals and require employers provide proper protection.

Tobacco is a known carcinogen.
 
davefleck said:
We (as in society, government, regulatory agencies) have an obligation to maintain reasonably save working conditions. Can't build with asbestos etc. We regulate industrial usage of harmful chemicals and require employers provide proper protection.

Tobacco is a known carcinogen.
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so all smoking should be illegal?
 
You don't need a government-mandated smoking ban to eliminate smoking in bars. All you need is a bar owner who decides not to allow it.

Coercion suks. Choice rulz. Nuff said.
 
billtzk said:
You don't need a government-mandated smoking ban to eliminate smoking in bars.
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Actually, history disagrees with you. There were *no* non-smoking bars around here until the laws were passed.
 
Alright, I will go with the crowd that likes the smoking bans, somewhat. I dont think that smoking should be banned in all public places as the streets are public, the sidewalks are public, the parks are public. All public spaces should have no restriction on smoking. Smokers are part of the public. Like it or not.

That said, I think it's insane to draft a law against establishments like cigar bars and hookah lounges (they've done so in a couple of states). Places designed to be for smoking tobacco products should have no laws against them. Employees that would work there know what they are getting into. Patrons know what they are for.

So, tobacco bans are an on-the-fence issue for me.
 
Hopefully my former comments show that I'm in the statseeker camp on this. Anyone who meets me for about 20 minutes knows my obvious political leanings, they are hard for me to hide, so I am really NOT at all fond of the "I'm an 80 something in Peoria and what these kids in New York are doing is a disgrace and is immoral and they should make a law" mentality. So I am pretty shocked to hear myself agreeing with the ban.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Hopefully my former comments show that I'm in the statseeker camp on this. Anyone who meets me for about 20 minutes knows my obvious political leanings, they are hard for me to hide, so I am really NOT at all fond of the "I'm an 80 something in Peoria and what these kids in New York are doing is a disgrace and is immoral and they should make a law" mentality. So I am pretty shocked to hear myself agreeing with the ban.
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Same here. It's not an issue of choice/liberty/personal responsibility for.

Heck, I think people should be able to shoot up heroin if they want to... in private. I am dead against the prohibition of any drug (not just alcohol or weed), turning drug users into criminals and filling the prisons with them. Never had a hooker, but I also strongly feel that prostitution should be legal.

And yet, I fully support banning smoking in bars and restaurants.
 
Oh, I do however think you do NOT have the liberty to talk about your golf game in an elevator with 1 or more uniterested parties present. If you do so, you should be levied a fine payable to the people who were held hostage while you prattled on. Im only 1/4 kidding on this one.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Oh, I do however think you do NOT have the liberty to talk about your golf game in an elevator with 1 or more uniterested parties present. If you do so, you should be levied a fine payable to the people who were held hostage while you prattled on. Im only 1/4 kidding on this one.
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Ha! But I'm sure you'd be interested in hearing how I use my five wood whenever possible, and how I nearly had a hole-in-one, and that incredible 20 foot putt ;)
 

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