Small table Saison grain bill?

[brownni5]

Inspired by the Sub 1.030 thread elsewhere on the forum, I want to brew a table strength Saison, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.030, something I can drink a couple of and go along with my evening. How do I brew a 1.030-ish Saison/Farmhouse Ale (if we must) that isn't watery or boring knowing it will finish bone dry (or at least hoping so)? Here's my anticipated grain bill which is loosley inspired by Jester Kings Das Wunderkind:

75% pils
10% Munich
8% wheat malt
4% Flaked something
3% acid malt

Pils base is a must. Not married to the Munich, but I do like it in my Saisons. Should I combine the wheat malt and flaked grains instead of separating them? I can adjust with lactic rather than acid malt, but I have it around. If I do use flaked grains, which would work best here for body and head retention? JK uses oats, which I love, but also like rye, and have some barley around that I haven't used before.

Hopping will be simple since I plan to split the batch among three yeasts/blends.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

You'll be fine. Keep in mind the history of the Saison/Farmhouse. Each farmer or homestead brewed with what they had. Some didn't even have hops and they used spices instead. There never was a standard and shipping in bags of grain was hard to come by. The whole purpose was to give the farm workers something to drink. Saison means "season" or "seasonal". It was brewed in the summer for the fall harvest, then brewed in the winter for the spring plantings.

Belgian or german pilsner malt... Absolutely!
Munich... Totally fine, darkens it a bit, good flavor. Vienna is good too. A dash of special-b can add some interesting flavor.
Wheat... Great, some use it, some dont. Adds some breadiness.
Flaked... Oats will work, increases a little mouthfeel if thats what you are interested in.
Hops… I highly recommend <20 IBU. Nobles work well (spalt, saaz, liberty, etc). Early. Very little late addition.
Dry... Absolutely. 3711 will attenuate water and old gym socks. Lacks funk. Mixing a Dupont culture with 3711 is what I use.
Ferment... HIGH. Don't fear the funk. 85F works great. Some commercials go up to 95F.
Acid… With all that pilsner you will need it. Acid malt or lactic or phosphoric, whatever you prefer. Too much lactic may give a slight sour.
Mash... LOW. Dry that puppy out. I typically mash at 145 to 147.
ABV... Sometimes its hard to dry it out, attenuate the hell out of it, but still stay sessionable. To me, lower ABV is better for a Saison.
Head... I find Carafoam works much better than Carapils. Doesn't throw much flavor. Maybe 4% ish. Wheat or oats may help a little but I dont fine them as helpful as Carafoam for hardcore dense and fluffy head retention.

Most of all, keep it simple, clean, and refreshing. A ton of body and mouthfeel can kill the sense of dryness and refreshment. Let the yeast flavor and aroma dominate over hoppiness. Think of it as something like a Kirin or Sapporo with a better malt backbone and a lot more yeast funky.

 

[thehaze]

I agree with SoCal-Doug on all the points made.

To avoid " that watery " result, you'd want a higher FG, but that just goes against what a Saison is, so don't bother. Instead focus on mouthfeel, that can add " perception of body ", sort of. Personally, I like a combination of 50-70% Pilsner + 50-30% Blend of Wheat, Rye and Oat malts. This combo has definitely steered my beers in the right direction. I leave out any Crystal/Caramel malts, as I don't quite like them in these stye of beers, but 1-2% will not hurt either.

Rye, Wheat and Oats can add a bit of complexity to the Pilsner malt base and some slickness, but will not feel heavy or syrupy.

 

[leesmith]

Just as a side note on the history of the style....this is a pretty interesting read:

http://lostbeers.com/fact-check-yvan-de-baets-on-saison-and-the-results-may-shock-you/

I like this guys idea on water treatment for the style:

http://spontaneousfunk.blogspot.com/2015/01/saisons-farmhouse-ales-general-thoughts.html

 

[NTexBrewer]

Here is my “table” Saison recipe. It is actually the grain bill for Local Buzz from Four Corners. Not sure where you are located but since you referenced JK figure you may be in Texas. Years ago I toured Four Corners and the brewer let me have the recipe for Local Buzz. Last summer I decided to split a batch and fermented half with ale yeast and half with Saison yeast since to me the grain bill and color would make an interesting Saison. Both versions were very good.

5 gallon batch

64% 2-row
14% American Munich 10L
11% German rye
3% Carared
3% Carafoam
5% Honey (late addition)

Hops:

Columbus - 60 minutes for 14 IBU’s
Liberty - 15 minutes 3 IBU’s
Sterling - 15 minutes 5 IBU’s
Liberty - Flameout (same amount as 15 minute addition)
Sterling - Flameout (same amount as 15 minute addition)

I use M29
OG 1.046 FG 1.006

This is a little bigger than what you want but it gives you an idea. The rye gives some spice. I believe the Cara malts help with body.

Also, not sure if you keg or bottle condition. This is just my opinion but I think a Saison looses something when it is force carbonated. I naturally carbonate my Saisons even when kegging.

 

[brownni5]

Thanks all. I think I'll bump up the wheat malt a bit and decide on which flaked grains as I get closer to the brew.

I'm not in TX - in MN, which now feels worlds away - and have strangely enough never had a JK brew, but they're very well respected and lower gravity than just about every other brew out there, so I thought I would start there.

I'm going to split among Omega Javaru, Bootleg Saison Parfait, and Bootleg MF Blend to decide which is the way I want to take my saisons/farmhouse beers from here in out.

Interesting blog - spontaneous funk. He's got some good ideas.

I only bottle condition - no keg setup - and I've been stockpiling heavy and champagne bottles to really ratchet up the carbonation. Naturally conditioning is as interesting as the brewing to me - these are live beers evolving with time, sometimes very rapidly.

 

[catdaddy66]

Just got my saison recipe together though it isn't a table beer...

5.5 gal
90 minute boil

5# Belgian pilsner malt
3# Belgian pale malt
2.25# white wheat malt
4oz carapils
4oz Special B malt
1# Candi sugar (gold)

Mash at 150 deg for 75 min
Sparge at 168 deg for 15 min

WYEAST 3711 starter (1.5L)

ibu- 31
SRM 8
OG- 1.063; FG- 1.005

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Just got my saison recipe together though it isn't a table beer...

Couple suggestions... Use carafoam instead of carapils. They are supposed to be similar but i've found that the carafoam brand malt works way better. Sparge longer, maybe 30 minutes slowly. Shoot for end runnings of 1.005 so you get all the goodness and don't leave much in the mash tun. Don't fear the funk. Let the 3711 run at 85F or a little higher. It's a great yeast.

Kudos on the Special-B. It's an awesome add to a Saison.

 

[brownni5]

5# Belgian pilsner malt
3# Belgian pale malt
2.25# white wheat malt
4oz carapils
4oz Special B malt
1# Candi sugar (gold)

Why the carapils and the sugar? One is to leave some residual sugars the other to dry it out?

 

[catdaddy66]

Why the carapils and the sugar? One is to leave some residual sugars the other to dry it out?

The carapils is new as I haven't used it before, but it is for head retention. I know the wheat will do that also but I haven't used wheat in a saison before either. I bumped it up by 4oz because I didn't have the acid malt that normally gets added. The sugar is to help dry it out, as you mentioned.

Next time I try this recipe I will probably omit the carapils.

 

[leesmith]

The carapils is new as I haven't used it before, but it is for head retention. I know the wheat will do that also but I haven't used wheat in a saison before either. I bumped it up by 4oz because I didn't have the acid malt that normally gets added. The sugar is to help dry it out, as you mentioned.

Next time I try this recipe I will probably omit the carapils.

If you want to know what something contributes, keep it simple.

Do a Pilsner and wheat grain bill. Maybe 80/20 to start.
3711 will dry that beer out regardless of the sugar if given appropriate time...especially with that mash temp.

Then next time, do a Pilsner and carapils combo.

Simple can be complex.

 

[catdaddy66]

If you want to know what something contributes, keep it simple.

Do a Pilsner and wheat grain bill. Maybe 80/20 to start.
3711 will dry that beer out regardless of the sugar if given appropriate time...especially with that mash temp.

Then next time, do a Pilsner and carapils combo.

Simple can be complex.

Good advice. I was perusing the thread on carapils vs carafoam and after reading some articles on the effect of dextrins at varying concentrations. The small amount in my recipe wouldn't have any noticeable change in mouthfeel but the yeast (wy3711) will chew up the dextrins and make more alcohol. So my next iteration may be without the carapils.

 

[hottpeper13]

I've been using malted oats instead of the flaked in some beers and have found, you can use more without it getting slick or veg tasting, the husk is intact so no rice hulls needed and last but not least it's self converting. My NEIPAS stay cloudy longer if no B-glucan rest is used. If you want clear beer with good mouth feel do a step mash starting ~100*. I've gone as high as 36% in my APA recipe and it wouldn't clear, tasted smooth and hoppy,was not slick at all. I plan on using it in my summer table rye saison in place of some of the pils and flaked grains.