skimming before boil. anyone do it?

[Shawn_Brewin]

So I was brewing a batch of "Punkin Ale" this morning and I used leaf hops for the first time as my FWH and they seriously hindered m ability to skim the white head tht develops on the top of the kettle before boiling. I though to myself does it really make a difference? Then I really thought about it afterwards and I have never read anywhere, books, columns, webcasts, etc. That Stat this as a step in the brewing process.

I. Learned the process from a frind that taught m how to brew an he said he picked it up while brewing with a brewery in saskatchewan, Canada.

Does anyone else do this? Know why it is good/bad???

 

[iijakii]

Break material settles out and is the trub etc you see when emptying the kettle and fermenters. I sometimes do it if bored, but don't try to.

 

[normonster]

I do every time 100%. Despite Brewlocifer's experiment that indicates otherwise I believe my beer has improved since I started the practice.

 

[Yooper]

I have never skimmed, and I never plan to.

 

[brick_haus]

No skimming for me

 

[ImNoExpert]

I skimmed when I started. Then stopped when I realized it was doing nothing for me. My beers are clean, crisp, and crystal clear (at least when I want them to be).

 

[kombat]

Never skimmed once in 114 batches. My beers are crystal clear and win awards.

 

[Gavin C]

I skim the hotbreak if making a lager or hybrid.

Don't really have a good reason though. Something I read about traditional methods employed by German lager breweries.

A poor example of why to do something for sure. I do use a plate chiller and although I've never got a blockage from break material, the hot break does form large clumps and is easily removed avoiding it getting into my chiller.

Hot Break Removal

 

[wobdee]

It probably doesn't make a huge difference whether you skim or not but I feel it's just one of those little things that adds up overall to producing a great beer over just good beer. I get some small grain particles and flour with my system and skimming removes most of this.

 

[cyberbrew]

No skimming here...

 

[giraffe]

I skim everytime, but mostly to avoid boil overs, and out of a sort of tradition/something to do while you stand there. The stuff will settle out in the break regardless.

 

[kh54s10]

No skim, I have never read anywhere that it helps anything other than possibly a boil over.

 

[Devon]

I heard or read something a few years ago that suggested skimming would help prevent a boilover. It had something to do with not allowing the steam to escape or something. I'm not sure I buy that, however.

I do skim a little, if for no other reason than watching a pot come to a boil can be a little tedious.

 

[iijakii]

Next up in the rabbit hole is removing krausen. Kaiser has an article about his experiences with it. I don't do it, that's for sure.

 

[Gavin C]

It sure is hard to find any compelling evidence to support the practice of skimming which i have used on my last 5 lager/hybrid beers.

Obstruction of plate chiller seems to be the main reason but there are simple ways to achieve this both at the homebrew scale and commercial scale without skimming.

Here is one publication which talks about alot of various chemical processes involved in brewing. Much of it is not applicable to homebrewing. It is heavy going and far from convincing.

In the paragraph below, the author talks about removing break material but is not specific about how it is removed. Later on in the publication, centrifuge and gravity assisted filtering is discussed.

Anyway here it is from this link for anyone who cares to peruse it. from page 454
__________________________________

Hot Break Formation. During boiling, two types of compounds are formed:
1. Compounds consisting of proteins and polyphenols, and compounds consisting of
proteins and oxidized polyphenols that are insoluble in hot wort and precipitate as
hot break;
2. Compounds formed from protein degradation products and polyphenols, which
remain in solution during boiling and only precipitate as cold break when the
wort is cooled (Kunze 1999).
Polyphenols are not directly involved in protein coagulation because protein–polyphenol
complexes are based on hydrogen bondings, which have only a very weak binding energy
at boiling temperatures and are unstable under these conditions (Miedaner 1986; Narziss
1992). Hot break formation is encouraged by longer boiling times, vigorous movement of
the boiling wort (which improves the reaction between proteins and polyphenols), and a
low pH, because the coagulation is best accomplished at the isoelectric point of the
proteins. To obtain a sufficient coagulation, a pH of 5.2 is recommended (Narziss 1992;
Kunze 1999). The isoelectric pH of some proteins – such as b-glubulins, d- and
1-hordein – is very low (pH 4.9) and cannot always be realized during wort boiling.
The removal of high-MW coagulable proteins is very important for the composition
and the quality of the finished beer. Insufficient coagulation and removal result in a
poor fermentation because the transport of substrates to and products from the yeast
cells is hindered by the hot break adsorbed on the yeast cell walls. This leads to an insuffi-
cient pH drop during the primary fermentation and therefore to an incomplete elimination
of proteins during the main fermentation, followed by a poor clarification during storage.
This can result in a beer with a harsh bitterness (“protein bitterness&#8221 and a poor colloidal
stability.


Sorry in advance big tme TL, DR.

 

[Gavin C]

Next up in the rabbit hole is removing krausen. Kaiser has an article about his experiences with it. I don't do it, that's for sure.

Yea, that could be a challenge with a carboy. Where's that guy who got the tongs out of the carboy. He'll know how to do it.

 

[bsdell]

While we're talking about skimming or stirring. When the hop material gets on the sides of the brew kettle, should you scrape it off and put it back into the boil?

 

[cyberbrew]

While we're talking about skimming or stirring. When the hop material gets on the sides of the brew kettle, should you scrape it off and put it back into the boil?

Without a doubt! Get all that goodness back into the boil.

 

[jschein]

While we're talking about skimming or stirring. When the hop material gets on the sides of the brew kettle, should you scrape it off and put it back into the boil?

Just like cooking Italian gravy or chili. Good stuff on the sides.

 

[Shawn_Brewin]

Awesome guys/gals. It is Good to here that there is no significant difference in if you do it or not. I think it has become a tradition to me as of sorts so I will continue on with it. Can't hurt to remove some of the hot break. I really relate to the comments too about how it's just a good way to keep on eye on your boil. Never really have to worry about a boil over if you are standing there right before it happens with a spoon in your hand!

 

[splyn]

would skimming help to reduce the amount of trub?

 

[wobdee]

would skimming help to reduce the amount of trub?

I think it does just a bit for me but I never did a side by side exbeeriment to be sure.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

In my experience skimming seemed to lead to poor foam formation/retention in my beers especially low gravity ones. This is a very complicated and rather hot debate with many variables. There maybe an argument for skimming if you have clarity issues, however the use of finings, a good hot and cold break, grist composition, and
yeast selection has tended to improve the clarity issues of my brews.
Cheers,
weez

 

[normonster]

You're a closet skimmer Weez. [emoji12]

 

[Shawn_Brewin]

In my experience skimming seemed to lead to poor foam formation/retention in my beers especially low gravity ones. This is a very complicated and rather hot debate with many variables. There maybe an argument for skimming if you have clarity issues, however the use of finings, a good hot and cold break, grist composition, and
yeast selection has tended to improve the clarity issues of my brews.
Cheers,
weez

What do you think you would be removing from the beer that creates the head retention?

 

[normonster]

What do you think you would be removing from the beer that creates the head retention?

Protein?

 

[joshesmusica]

What do you think you would be removing from the beer that creates the head retention?

Yeah proteins.

From what I can tell, the only time you hear of someone advocating for skimming, it's all based off of that they "feel" it makes everything better.

As far as trub in the fermenter, all the people arguing for it point to Brulosopher's exbeeriments; while all of those opposed refer back to old homebrewing texts. The only thing I have seen that had some science to back it up was in one of the threads of the trub exbeeriments. The guy showed that in ligher, crisper, hoppier styles that high trub helped, but in maltier, darker, sweeter beers it had adverse effects. This article, which was very scientific in nature, convinced me enough.

Another really weird thing is that there was this Norwegian guy who found all of these farmhouse brewers that have their yeast and techniques passed down from generations and generations back. One guy he ended up brewing with skimmed the hot break as it occurred, and when asked why, responded with, "Now we're getting rid of the headache." Which he took to mean that skimming the hot break would help reduce the hangover headache.

With all of that said, I have started skimming on my more malt-forward, darker beers (brown and darker), but not on anything light and crisp and hop-forward. Unless I end up with a BK that's incredibly full. Then I will skim in order to avoid a boil-over.

 

[Gavin C]

The only proteins removed by skimming are coagulated ones. These are not playing any role in head retention. Your not going to get these proteins un-coagulated to contribute anything to the head, good or bad.

We've all seen coagulated proteins anytime we cook an egg. Good luck getting those un-coagulated.

Same with break material. You want it to form as it will leave clearer wort and beer. This is not the same as saying clear wort void of break material is important in the FV. This is saying that break formation is important.

Is break removal important prior to wort going to the FV? I don't know.

Ways to remove break include skimming, whirl pooling, passive settling and subsequent racking wort to FV.

I sure don't have any good reasons to support why I skim but it is certainly not because i am trying to avoid break in the FV. All the cold break goes in so that is not something I want to avoid or try to avoid. A pointless endeavor IMO.

Equally I don't believe break material to pose negative consequences for clarity, mouthfeel, flavor or head retention. I've not read anything that supports that on the homebrew scale.

Boil-overs are not a concern with my setup so no reason there either.

The hot break just bugs me when I see clumps getting sucked into my plate chiller. I'd sooner remove it as I have been via skimming. But I may well change if I grow weary of doing this light task.

 

[tracyk]

I will do it if I am bored and just standing there, but not all the time. I have never notice a difference in my beers in the end though.

I have never noticed a difference with head retention either.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

To skim or not to skim that is the question. Not a closet skimmer only a former one, I gave it all up. Does all the hot break material that forms pre-boil coagulate and precipitate, i.e. if your not skimming or does some find its way dissolved in the wort?
I would not make the statement if you skim you will have poor foam formation/stability. When I started home brewing I never skimmed nobody ever told me I should. There were several years that went by that I didn't home brew got busy with life etc. When I started back I read or someone said to me that skimming was the in thing, all the cool kids are doing it. Makes sense the stuff is going end up on the bottom of the kettle why not throw it out up front. They use to call me super skim. I started brewing real low gravity really low hopped natural light wannabes for friends of mine and I started having problems with foam stability. I went back through a lot of old notes and realized that in the past when I didn't skim but had boil over I also had low head retention that lead me to stop skimming and hey all other things being equal the no foam problems went away for me.
I would say the skimming would reduce the overall trub though,preventing a boil over maybe maybe not.
Cheers,
weez

 

[normonster]

Just admit it Weez. That's the first step to skim recovery.

 

[blizz81]

No skimming, and everything goes into the fermenter (hop trub minimized by bags). So not completely au naturale...more like "landing strip".

 

[Shawn_Brewin]

Yeah I have heard good things about letting it all go into the fermenter (minus hops) gonna have to not skim on my next Amber ale batch and see if I have any changes...

 

[joshesmusica]

Yeah I have heard good things about letting it all go into the fermenter (minus hops) gonna have to not skim on my next Amber ale batch and see if I have any changes...

But again, I'm willing to bet that what you heard has just been regurgitated reports from Brulosopher's experiments. Which only prove that on average-sized, light beers, that are consumed rather quickly (less than 4 months) high amounts of trub don't make much of an impact.

On the reverse side, though, if you're creating a high-abv beer that could use some aging, it seems the trub will impact the long-term stability of the beer.

More specifically, fatty acids are assumed to be responsible mainly for the formation of epoxy and trihydroxy-acids, which are staling pre-cursors, and have an increased solubility in wort and reach the final beer.

Additionally, there seems to be a correlation between the content of long-chain fatty acids and the organoleptic sense of staling.

On the topic of head retention and the trub's role in that:

“the surface-active properties of lipids may be beneficial for head retention since they can suppress excessive fobbing during fermentation. Head positive substances, mainly protein derived, are concentrated in the fob and can be removed from the fob by precipitation. This may explain why worts with high lipid content, e.g. from a mash filter, can give a beer with better head retention than that produced from a low lipid content wort."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00716.x/pdf

 

[Nagorg]

Somehow I have never heard of skimming the hot break till now. So, I have obviously never done it. Not sure I will either since my process so far has produced what I believe is good beer. I do have a few medals from some of these so at least a few other people must agree with that. Not to mention, it sounds like a PITA!

 

[Rcbandl]

If skimming makes you feel better, go for it. Im pretty sure the only advantage doing this is "making you feel better"

The amounts of break material you are removing is minimal, probably less than 5%. Very little of the foam is actually hot break. Its a very small percentage mixed with the wort. The bulk of break material is floating in the wort. You know the stuff that looks like egg drop soup.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

Yeah I have heard good things about letting it all go into the fermenter (minus hops) gonna have to not skim on my next Amber ale batch and see if I have any changes...

Try it. Very likely on an amber ale of normal gravity you won't find any difference what so ever. I don't really understand what you mean minus the hops though?

 

[thethirstyweasel]

If skimming makes you feel better, go for it. Im pretty sure the only advantage doing this is "making you feel better"

The amounts of break material you are removing is minimal, probably less than 5%. Very little of the foam is actually hot break. Its a very small percentage mixed with the wort. The bulk of break material is floating in the wort. You know the stuff that looks like egg drop soup.

I agree!

 

[thethirstyweasel]

But again, I'm willing to bet that what you heard has just been regurgitated reports from Brulosopher's experiments. Which only prove that on average-sized, light beers, that are consumed rather quickly (less than 4 months) high amounts of trub don't make much of an impact.

On the reverse side, though, if you're creating a high-abv beer that could use some aging, it seems the trub will impact the long-term stability of the beer.





On the topic of head retention and the trub's role in that:



http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00716.x/pdf

Those notorious scientist what they know? I say this as I have degree in Chemistry. Often you read these scientific journals and this group finds this set of results. Another group comes along and finds exactly opposite results, then a third group comes along and finds something different than both of the previous. I'm not trying to be little the science in brewing by no means, I think the discoveries that have been made has led to better beer and that is what it is all about. I will say that beer has been brewed for millennia and only in the last century or so did anyone have the foggiest idea of what they were doing. Each brew is an experiment and that is wonderful thing. Even better is sharing the results with like minded people who want to make better beer.
Naturally, were not always going to agree, but I try to have an open mind, and listen to others experiences and compare their results with my own. As far as trub is concerned I think skimming would only very marginally remove total trub in the kettle. I would only worry about its effect on the beer if it was a lot of trub and the beer was in contact with it a very long time.
cheers,
Weez

 

[joshesmusica]

If skimming makes you feel better, go for it. Im pretty sure the only advantage doing this is "making you feel better"

The amounts of break material you are removing is minimal, probably less than 5%. Very little of the foam is actually hot break. Its a very small percentage mixed with the wort. The bulk of break material is floating in the wort. You know the stuff that looks like egg drop soup.

Granted the amount that you might skim may not be very much (depending on how vigilant one was, I would personally venture to say it's more than 5%, but that would be just as much an opinionated guess as yours was). The problem is that the discussion turned from skimming at the beginning of the boil, to pour in all the trub all the time. Which a lot of the science shows is a very over-generalized statement that could end up helping to stale some styles much quicker.