Should I need triple decoction for my Bohemian pilsner?

[dushaopang]

I want to make my first Bohemian pilsner,but I'm not sure I need a triple decoction? My grain is Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner.

 

[AlexKay]

Weyermann? Nope. Single infusion will work fine.

 

[Steveruch]

No.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I want to make my first Bohemian pilsner,but I'm not sure I need a triple decoction? My grain is Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner.

I received a direct email from Weyermann. They do recommend a decoction mash for this style of beer.

Here is the response I received from Weyermann...

Hello Bel Air Brewing ,


Thanks or your mail.

It´s great to hear you like our malt so much to brew all your beers with Weyermann® malt.
All our Weyermann® malt are well modified for protein and starch.

You can brew with all our basemalts in infusion way, no need for decoction.

We recommend decoction for pilsner kind of beers.

I added 2 nice recipes from our library to show how to use our malts in infusion way.


Happy brewing with Weyermann® malts


Constantin Förtner

 

[DBhomebrew]

You can brew with all our basemalts in infusion way, no need for decoction.

We recommend decoction for pilsner kind of beers.

I added 2 nice recipes FROM OUR LIBRARY to show how to use our malts in infusion way.

Yeah, but don't discount the bracketing.

 

[dmtaylor]

Decoction is always optional when using any commercial malt in the 21st century. Maltsters just cannot help but to produce excellent malt. None are undermodified, not even floor malted.

If you malt your own grain at home, then you might want to decoct.

 

[IslandLizard]

One could simply add a few ounces* of Melanoidin Malt to the grist to mimic some of the flavors associated with decoctions, without committing to the 3-4 hour decoction rigamarole. But it's a good workout, and exercise in mashing techniques to scrap off your brewing bucket list.

* 2-4 ounces of Melanoidin Malt in a 5 gallon batch goes a long way. More robust beers such as Oktoberfests or Doppelbocks may tolerate more.

I have brewed a double decocted Witbier, and flavorwise it's about as good as it gets.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/double-decocted-belgian-witbier.514031/

 

[Protos]

Do the decoction.
You'll thank yourself you did.
Then more, you're brewing a Bohemian style. Decoction is a must in anything Czech. Czechs themselves take a great pride in that even when many German brewers have long abandoned decoction in favour of the lazy infusions, they in Bohemia still do it the hard (=the real) way.
Then more, again, you have not just any malt, but the rare Bohemian Floor-malted one! The authentic traditional product demands an authentic traditional technique to process it, otherwise you're wasting something - not much, but still.

Decoction is not all about efficiency. It's about adding subtle flavour as well. Adding Melano Malt gives just a rough and a distant approximation, imo.

For the coming Lagering Season, I plan to brew 18 Lagers, 14 of them decocted and 5 involve triple decoction, feared by many. It's not at all as hard as it might seem. And the result is worth a bit of the extra work, I firmly believe.

 

[dushaopang]

Do the decoction.
You'll thank yourself you did.
Then more, you're brewing a Bohemian style. Decoction is a must in anything Czech. Czechs themselves take a great pride in that even when many German brewers have long abandoned decoction in favour of the lazy infusions, they in Bohemia still do it the hard (=the real) way.
Then more, again, you have not just any malt, but the rare Bohemian Floor-malted one! The authentic traditional product demands an authentic traditional technique to process it, otherwise you're wasting something - not much, but still.

Decoction is not all about efficiency. It's about adding subtle flavour as well. Adding Melano Malt gives just a rough and a distant approximation, imo.

For the coming Lagering Season, I plan to brew 18 Lagers, 14 of them decocted and 5 involve triple decoction, feared by many. It's not at all as hard as it might seem. And the result is worth a bit of the extra work, I firmly believe.

Thank you for your advice！

 

[dushaopang]

One could simply add a few ounces* of Melanoidin Malt to the grist to mimic some of the flavors associated with decoctions, without committing to the 3-4 hour decoction rigamarole. But it's a good workout, and exercise in mashing techniques to scrap off your brewing bucket list.

* 2-4 ounces of Melanoidin Malt in a 5 gallon batch goes a long way. More robust beers such as Oktoberfests or Doppelbocks may tolerate more.

I have brewed a double decocted Witbier, and flavorwise it's about as good as it gets.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/double-decocted-belgian-witbier.514031/

I've seen this argument too, maybe we can try it sometime。Thank you！

 

[dushaopang]

I received a direct email from Weyermann. They do recommend a decoction mash for this style of beer.

Here is the response I received from Weyermann...

Hello Bel Air Brewing ,


Thanks or your mail.

It´s great to hear you like our malt so much to brew all your beers with Weyermann® malt.
All our Weyermann® malt are well modified for protein and starch.

You can brew with all our basemalts in infusion way, no need for decoction.

We recommend decoction for pilsner kind of beers.

I added 2 nice recipes from our library to show how to use our malts in infusion way.


Happy brewing with Weyermann® malts


Constantin Förtner

Thank you for sharing！

 

[dushaopang]

Weyermann? Nope. Single infusion will work fine.

Yes.weyermann

 

[dushaopang]

Weyermann? Nope. Single infusion will work fine.

I looked up the information and it seems that triple decoction is more for flavor

 

[Oleson M.D.]

As Weyermann stated in their email, you can do an infusion mash. However, they do recommend a decoction mash for any Pilsner type of beer.

 

[catalanotte]

I just made a Czech Pilsner and opted for a Hochkruzruz mash at 145 and 158. Started at 1 qt/lb and ended up about 1.5 qt/lb. Did a decoction for the mash out step because because the mash tun was at capacity. This beer came out great. Not sure if the extra step was needed, based on the malt, but it did result in great efficiency and a FG right on target (1.014)
https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/

 

[Protos]

This year I failed to procure me any traditional Bohemian Malt, whether German, English or Czech.
My planned Bohemian beers I brew every winter are ruined. How could I live without my true to the style, process and ingredients Böhmisches Dunkles, my dark, hearty 15% Carabohemian Crystal beery dessert that reconciles me with the horrors of living? Well, I'll brew it anyway with Weyermann Pilsener and stuff, but it won't be the same as before.

I'd oblige to make a Quintiple Decoction and to stream the process on the web if someone brings me 10 kg of Hannah Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner. Unfortunately to me and to my hypothetical stream auditorium, that won't happen this year.

And then, I see people, sittin on the treasure of Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsener, who are weighing the options whether to do a decoction with it or not!
Do the decoction!!!

 

[AlexKay]

I looked up the information and it seems that triple decoction is more for flavor

The decoction is mostly for tradition, if you want to brew a beer the way they made it hundreds of years ago, before there were thermometers available in the brewery. There are certainly people who say that the flavor changes because of the decoction, due to additional Maillard reactions or tannin extraction or oxygen introduction or whatever the reason is.

There is no reason, however, for using acid and protein rests for highly modified modern malts, of which Weyermann floor-malted Bohemian is one.

 

[AlexKay]

This year I failed to procure me any traditional Bohemian Malt, whether German, English or Czech.
My planned Bohemian beers I brew every winter are ruined. How could I live without my true to the style, process and ingredients Böhmisches Dunkles, my dark, hearty 15% Carabohemian Crystal beery dessert that reconciles me with the horrors of living? Well, I'll brew it anyway with Weyermann Pilsener and stuff, but it won't be the same as before.

I'd oblige to make a Quintiple Decoction and to stream the process on the web if someone brings me 10 kg of Hannah Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner. Unfortunately to me and to my hypothetical stream auditorium, that won't happen this year.

And then, I see people, sittin on the treasure of Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsener, who are weighing the options whether to do a decoction with it or not!
Do the decoction!!!

Northern Brewer has Crisp Haná in stock for the low, low price of $110 per bag (admittedly with free shipping.)

I bought five pounds of it to try in a Bo Pils. Depending on my motivation level, I may do side-by-side batches with the Haná and my regular Pils malt.

Edit: Ah, you're not in the US, so this doesn't help. Sorry!

 

[Protos]

There is no reason, however, for using acid and protein rests for highly modified modern malts

Actually, that's true.
No real need in multiple rests with well-modified malts. Aside from knowing you're brewing the absolutely authentic product no money can buy.
A single long and hot and dry (less water, more caramelisation) decoction is enough for giving the beer the hallmark tannic and melanoidin flavour.
Still, it's essential for the styles that have been traditionally brewed with it.

 

[Beermeister32]

I was looking at Trumer, looks like they are using a de-husked Pilsner? Anyone have a line on a de-husked Pilsner malt? Would like to give it a try if it exists.

 

[AlexKay]

I was looking at Trumer, looks like they are using a de-husked Pilsner? Anyone have a line on a de-husked Pilsner malt? Would like to give it a try if it exists.

Briess MaltGems is de-husked pilsner.

 

[Beermeister32]

Great!

 

[stealthfixr]

Made a Czech Pale Lager for a club competition recently, never having made this style before, and decided to try what I will call Decoction Light. I pulled twice from the grist during the Brewzilla mash, using a 1-cup ladle and getting about 3 cups total, placing in a common pot and boiling/simmering this on the kitchen stove for 5-10 minutes before returning to the main mash.

Don't know if it was a decider or not, but the beer won 1st place/GM in its category. The base malt was the Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner malt, which I am loving after three recipes using it. The beer is darned good for a 1.040 OG/1.010 FG/4.1% ABV beer, and drinks much more like it's bigger ABV Pilsner cousins. The main criticism on the score sheets was that the 32 IBU/0.77 BU GU ratio beer needed more hop bitterness and presence (despite a 2oz Saaz hopstand for 25 minutes @ 165F) to match the malt flavor, which was surprising on such a low OG recipe. Decoction developed melanoidins?

Decoction is maybe not needed, but also doesn't have to be difficult. It did not extend the brew day at all, just kept me a little busier during the mash.

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

I used to fiddle with specific step temperature decoctions but I'm not sure how much of a difference they make. My last decoction was - @30 mins into the mash - simply leave half the grist in the mash tun @153F, boiling the other half for thirty minutes, recombining the two (BIAB) when ready to sparge.

I'm also not sure if there's such a thing anymore as undermodified malt but perhaps there are maltsters who go out of their way to produce such a thing. "Undermodified" might be implied by the term "floor malted" but the malt analysis sheet will probably read otherwise. When experimenting with this type of malt - I have resorted to malting my own which is not very difficult and much better than things like Chit malt.

 

[Brooothru]

I just made a Czech Pilsner and opted for a Hochkruzruz mash at 145 and 158. Started at 1 qt/lb and ended up about 1.5 qt/lb. Did a decoction for the mash out step because because the mash tun was at capacity. This beer came out great. Not sure if the extra step was needed, based on the malt, but it did result in great efficiency and a FG right on target (1.014)
https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/

For a local competition this year (~150 or so entries), I took Best of Show with a Czech Pilsner. 100% Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian, Hoch-Kurz mash @145F/158F, 100% Saaz, WLP-800.

No melanoidin, no detoction. I've won more than a few ribbons as well as one other BoS over the years, but this was one of the simplest and best beers I've ever brewed.

I'm away from home for the next few weeks and will chase down the recipe and brew notes (keep reminding me) when I get back, if you'd like. It was embarrassingly simple and straightforward. Quality ingredients and plenty of fresh yeast.

 

[Brooothru]

For a local competition this year (~150 or so entries), I took Best of Show with a Czech Pilsner. 100% Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian, Hoch-Kurz mash @145F/158F, 100% Saaz, WLP-800.

No melanoidin, no detoction. I've won more than a few ribbons as well as one other BoS over the years, but this was one of the simplest and best beers I've ever brewed.

I'm away from home for the next few weeks and will chase down the recipe and brew notes (keep reminding me) when I get back, if you'd like. It was embarrassingly simple and straightforward. Quality ingredients and plenty of fresh yeast.

Sorry for the delay. Life got in the way. Here's my BoS winning Czech Pilsner:

Batch size 5.6 gallons
O.G. 1.045
F.G. 1.009
IBUs 36
ABV 4.7%

10# Floor malted pilsner
8 oz. Carafoam (I guess I did add something other than just pils malt)
4 oz. melanoidin (ditto the faulty memory)

Distilled water 8.5 gallons, adjusted to Ca - 7, Mg - 3, Na - 22, SO4 - 20, Cl - 12, HCO3 - 25
Lactic acid to adjust mash to pH 5.4

Hoch-Kurz Mash - Dough-in 50C/131F, maltose 63C/145F @ :45 mins., dextrin 72C/162F @ :20 mins, M.O. 76C/169F

75 minute "soft" boil

1 oz. Saaz 2.7% AA @ FWH
3 oz. Saaz 2.7% AA @ :30 mins.
3 oz. Saaz 2.7% AA @ :10 mins.

WLP-800 - Ten days @ 10C/50F to within 5 points of estimated F.G., cap and spund @ 19C/66F to completion of fermentation, cold crash to 3C/38F, lager for 4 weeks.

 

[mamajack]

Maybe noob question, but because of potential maillard reactions during boiling, wouldn't a decoction mash potentially darken the SRM value of a pils type beer more than is desirable or allowable for the style? Or would that only happen if you messed up and burned your decoction on the bottom? I would be concerned about darkening.

 

[Derp]

Sorry for the delay. Life got in the way. Here's my BoS winning Czech Pilsner:

Hoch-Kurz Mash - Dough-in 50C/131F, maltose 63C/145F @ :45 mins., dextrin 72C/162F @ :20 mins, M.O. 76C/169F

Thanks for the recipe. I've never brewed a Pilsner, but I was in Prague three weeks ago, and now I have a hankering to try brewing one.

I use Beersmith, and I have a few questions after trying to work up the recipe:

1. What's your brewhouse efficiency? I'm getting a significantly higher OG, which may be related to Question #2.
2. I've tried creating a Hoch-Kurz mash profile, but the OG is still off. Am I correct in interpreting your mash steps as dough in at 131, quickly raise to 145 and hold it for 45 minutes, raise to 162 for 20 minutes, then mash out at 169?
3. I can't currently spund, so should raising the fermentation temperature to 66 suffice?

Looking forward to giving your recipe a try. Our only homebrew store in San Antonio closed recently, so I guess I'll have to order supplies online.

 

[cactusgarrett]

cap and spund

I'm a firm believer that spunding brings that extra something to the table. If I'm entering a comp, the beer will be spunded for sure.