Should I add LME on a "only Grains and Hops IPA recipe"?

[UfoPizzaBeer]

Hello, I want to start brewing for the first time, and I have obviously lots of doubts.
First, I don't know very much about calculations, units, values... Do you guys know any orientative tutorial for these complicated matters? such as OG, FG, ABV, IBUs...

At the moment all I know I learned it watching this recipe, which I think it's quite comprehensive for beginners like me, that are just following recipe kits:


So, following those steps I am planning to brew this 30 litters IPA kit (although I am planning to brew only 20 litters, adjusting measurements accordingly):

IREKS 5.2Kg Pale Ale Malt
IREKS 0.3Kg Crystal Mahogany Malt
IREKS 0.3Kg Crystal Teak Malt
IREKS 0.5Kg Crystal Maple Malt
,
50g Cascade Hops
35g Chinook Hops
45g Citra Hops
,
11.5g Dry Ale Yeast

So my main doubt is, would it be a good idea to also add Liquid Malt Extract? I have this one:
Mangrove Jack's pure liquid malt extract - light 1.5 kg

If so, how much would be reasonable? would affect the IPA flavour? the ABV? any other unexpected consequences?

Thank you!

 

[Dgallo]

Hello, I want to start brewing for the first time, and I have obviously lots of doubts.
First, I don't know very much about calculations, units, values... Do you guys know any orientative tutorial for these complicated matters? such as OG, FG, ABV, IBUs...

At the moment all I know I learned it watching this recipe, which I think it's quite comprehensive for beginners like me, that are just following recipe kits:


So, following those steps I am planning to brew this 30 litters IPA kit (although I am planning to brew only 20 litters, adjusting measurements accordingly):

IREKS 5.2Kg Pale Ale Malt
IREKS 0.3Kg Crystal Mahogany Malt
IREKS 0.3Kg Crystal Teak Malt
IREKS 0.5Kg Crystal Maple Malt
,
50g Cascade Hops
35g Chinook Hops
45g Citra Hops
,
11.5g Dry Ale Yeast

So my main doubt is, would it be a good idea to also add Liquid Malt Extract? I have this one:
Mangrove Jack's pure liquid malt extract - light 1.5 kg

If so, how much would be reasonable? would affect the IPA flavour? the ABV? any other unexpected consequences?

Thank you!

First off, get your self a brewing softwares like BeerSmith

You can certainly start with all grain brewing but by doing a couple extract brews you’ll learn the basic concepts of brewing and tour able to fix any gravity issues by adding more dme or Lme if you’re under and can add more water if you’re over.

If you do go all-grain, this book helped me a lot in the beginning. I feel like everyone starting out should get it

 

[IslandLizard]

How to Brew
These are the online basics from the 1st edition.
The actual book is in its 4th edition now, highly recommended.

First off, get your self a brewing softwares like BeerSmith

I disagree for a first off, but maybe later. There are many free online recipe formulators (e.g., Brewer's Friend) and various calculators.
For beginners, best is to use proven recipes.

Not saying all grain is difficult, but a few extract brews really help to get the mechanics of brewing under the belt. Success rate is high!
While those are fermenting or drinking them, study up on all grain brewing.

 

[Dgallo]

I disagree for a first off, but maybe later. There are many free online

that’s what I was getting at, just making sure you have a calculator of some form. I just mentioned “like Brewers friend” because that’s the one I use.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm looking at your recipe.
That's a kit?
That's an awful lot (IMO way too much) crystal malt for 20 liters.
That's over 17% crystal malt. It's likely to be very sweet if not cloying.
It's a common beginner mistake to add too much crystal/cara malts. Unless you have some reason to want more, you generally don't want more than 10% (or 5% of you want any degree of crispness).

I'd suggest dropping half of the 1.1 kg of crystal malt and substituting Vienna (a malty base malt) instead, which will bump up the flavor but without the sweetness.

I also recommend something like Brewer's Friend, as it is a free phone app, but software helps, or using known recipes at first - you really shouldn't be trying to build your own recipe until you know what you are doing.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

And no, I wouldn't add any LME.
The whole point of going all-grain is to get away from extract.

 

[IslandLizard]

IPAs are about hops. Which, how, and when they are added makes all the difference:

1. Bittering hops at 60'
2. Flavor hops at one or more of these timings: 10', 5', Flameout, or Whirlpool/Hopstand (at reduced temps)
3. Aroma hops added as "dry hops" in the fermenter after fermentation has completed. Typically added 3-7 days before packaging (bottling/kegging)

 

[UfoPizzaBeer]

And no, I wouldn't add any LME.
The whole point of going all-grain is to get away from extract.

Would you not consider to turn an all grain into a partial mash recipe?

That's an awful lot (IMO way too much) crystal malt for 20 liters.

Yes it's a IPA kit, and all grains are already crushed and mixed together (I cannot get rid of the crystal malt). But keep in mind that this lot is for 30 liters.
And because I want to brew 20 liters, I am planning to remove from the total 6.3kg lot, at least 2.1kg, which leaves me 4.2kg of grains. I am removing also some of the hops measures accordingly.

I cannot find Brewer's Friend phone app, the link from the website is broken

Furthermore, all calculators I have encountered so far are quite complicated to use, they require a lot of prior experience.

Would anyone explain me how much water should I use with these 4.2kg of grains, and these 86g of hops (originally 130 for the 30 liters recipe), if I want to obtain 20 liters of beer?

If you do go all-grain, this book helped me a lot in the beginning. I feel like everyone starting out should get it

Thanks, I will check it

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes it's a IPA kit, and all grains are already crushed and mixed together (I cannot get rid of the crystal malt).

Of course you can't pick it out, but you can reduce the percentage by using a part of the mixed grain and add more base malt to it. Essentially diluting the crystal that way.

The phone app was discontinued a few years ago since it didn't live up to Brewer's Friends' high standards. Their web version is excellent, and much better than a phone app could be.

You'll need to familiarize yourself with terminology of various brew processes, a bit more complicated for all-grain than extract brewing, since extracts were premade by pro maltsters. They already performed the "more difficult" part.

For simplified mash + water calculations: Brew365.

On a side note, what's your hop schedule?

 

[IslandLizard]

Depending on where you live and the yeast you use, some form of temperature control is advised/needed during fermentation, especially the first few days to a week. It can make all the difference between hooch and good beer.

 

[UfoPizzaBeer]

For simplified mash + water calculations: Brew365.

another app that's been taken down, not my lucky day

On a side note, what's your hop schedule?

not schedule yet, I am planning to follow your previous message as a suggestion, and I will use either this, or any other advices I find here or there, and of course my intuition as well

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Re: LME
I guess I'd question why you would want to add LME. Like what do you expect to gain from it?
More alcohol? Then add more grain.
Just to use it up before it gets old? Fair enough. It won't hurt anything in such a small quantity, but you won't gain anything from it other than more fermentable sugar, which you could gain by removing less grain from the kit.

Re: Brewer's Friend
Haha I didn't realize they had stopped supporting the phone app. I use it all the time for every recipe I make. It has a few shortcomings (namely it needs a copy/paste function for making variations of the same recipe), but it's decent for basic recipe formulation.

Re: The recipe
Well I guess you can't do much about the grain ratio at this point, and you won't know exactly what you are getting - I suggest making sure it's mixed well before you remove a portion.
I wouldn't buy any more kits from whoever put that together - IMHO it's a lazy recipe and not a very good one for the purpose, unless you like sweet, heavy IPAs (which some people do, and more power to them!)

But at the end of the day, it will make beer and it will be drinkable, so go forth and brew, my friend!
Report back when it's done and you're drinking it with your impressions.

Prost!

 

[IslandLizard]

another app that's been taken down, not my lucky day

It is your lucky day:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180819144717/http://brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Depending on where you live and the yeast you use, some form of temperature control is advised/needed during fermentation, especially the first few days to a week. It can make all the difference between hooch and good beer.

Yes! This!
If you get much past mid-70's, you will adversely affect your beer (and bear in mind for an ale, you could be looking at internal beer temps 5+ degrees Fahrenheit higher than outside ambient temps.

 

[IslandLizard]

Re: LME
I guess I'd question why you would want to add LME. Like what do you expect to gain from it?
More alcohol? Then add more grain.
Just to use it up before it gets old? Fair enough. It won't hurt anything in such a small quantity, but you won't gain anything from it other than more fermentable sugar, which you could gain by removing less grain from the kit.

Replacing part of the grain mix with that Light LME (or some of it) will effectively dilute the heavy crystal load.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Replacing part of the grain mix with that Light LME (or some of it) will effectively dilute the heavy crystal load.

Good point - I didn't think of that.
I was just wondering what the OP was hoping to gain by adding it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I was just wondering what the OP was hoping to gain by adding it.

Me too!
He did ask how adding it would change things:

So my main doubt is, would it be a good idea to also add Liquid Malt Extract? I have this one:
Mangrove Jack's pure liquid malt extract - light 1.5 kg

If so, how much would be reasonable? would affect the IPA flavour? the ABV? any other unexpected consequences?

 

[bracconiere]

Do you guys know any orientative tutorial for these complicated matters? such as OG, FG, ABV, IBUs

OG, FG, ABV are not complicated....just need a dreaded triple scale hydrometer for ABV....

do you have a mash tun? going to need either that, or a BIAB bag....

 

[UfoPizzaBeer]

Replacing part of the grain mix with that Light LME (or some of it) will effectively dilute the heavy crystal load.

and why is that? what is the chemistry relationship between LME and Crystal Malt?
And how much would you add?

Good point - I didn't think of that.
I was just wondering what the OP was hoping to gain by adding it.

Basically, It just happens that, besides that IPA kit, I also have LME, and I am curious about it and I want to brew something out of the ordinary. And if I get to know approximately a good proportion between these two ingredients, I think I can get into this with the right foot.

 

[IslandLizard]

and why is that? what is the chemistry relationship between LME and Crystal Malt?
And how much would you add?

There is no chemical reaction.

Your can of light LME is nearly 100% made from 2-row or Pilsner malt. Replacing 33% of your grain mixture with LME will reduce the abundance of crystal malts it contains also by around 33%. This effectively brings the crystal malt percentage down from 15% to around 10%. So your beer isn't going to be as heavy and sweet.

33% of your grain mixture is 2.0 kg, so use 6.1 - 2.0 kg = 4.1 kg grain mixture (well homogenized)
Replace the left out grain with 2.0 kg * 0.75 (conversion factor) = 1.5 kg of LME
That's exactly 1 can. Add at flameout, and stir well until dissolved.

That would be for a 30 liter batch.
If you brew 20 liter, use 2/3 of those:

4.1 * .67 = 2.75 kg of your grain mixture
1.5 * .67 = 1.0 kg of light LME

You can store the leftover LME in the fridge, it will keep for a few weeks. Cover with plastic wrap or warm up and pour into another sealable jar.
Or add the whole can to make a bit stronger beer.
Or add the whole can and use only 4.1 - 0.75 = 3.4 kg of your grain mixture to make a similar strength beer, but even less sweet.

The amount of hops you listed is a bit skimpy for an IPA. Regardless of brewing only 20 liters, I'd use all the hops you've got listed there.
Do you have a dedicated bittering hop on hand? Or can you get some, like Warrior or Magnum or so? 1 oz should suffice for a 60' boil.
Then use the other hops split between late in the boil and hop stand. I'd save all the Citra for dry hop.

 

[UfoPizzaBeer]

That would be for a 30 liter batch.
If you brew 20 liter, use 2/3 of those:

4.1 * .67 = 2.75 kg of your grain mixture
1.5 * .67 = 1.0 kg of light LME

This is a great advice! thanks,

are this calculations correct?

Before I start brewing, I just noticed there's two steps I have never heard about and weren't even in the video I shared in the first comment, which I am gonna follow through all the steps:
Mashing and Sparging.
I am about to brew with muslin bags, is it necessary to care about these?

for a 20 liters batch = 5 gal.

 

[IslandLizard]

^
What size is your kettle?
Muslin bags? IF you were to do BIAB you'd use one fine mesh nylon bag, as large as the kettle with ample overhang.

How did you get to 10 lbs of grain?
Heat source?
What kind of fermenter(s)?
Why would equipment loss be 1 gallon?
I'd target a mash thickness of 1.5, easier to stir, holds heat better.

There's a lot to learn. How's the reading coming along?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You can certainly start with all grain brewing but by doing a couple extract brews you’ll learn the basic concepts of brewing and tour able to fix any gravity issues by adding more dme or Lme if you’re under and can add more water if you’re over.

If you do go all-grain, this book [Homebrew: Beyond the Basics] helped me a lot in the beginning. I feel like everyone starting out should get it

Nice book! From my perspective, the title captures the content well.

Nice to see a basic introductory approach to brewing salts using RO water that is "weight and go" (no need to turn on a computer).

 

[UfoPizzaBeer]

What size is your kettle?

it's a 26 liters capacity boiling pot, roughly 7 US gal (is this conversion correct? sorry but I always use metric system, and I am always doubting what kind of gallon do all tutorials and calculators refer to: US or UK?)

Muslin bags? IF you were to do BIAB you'd use one fine mesh nylon bag, as large as the kettle with ample overhang.

I am just following the same brewing steps as in the tutorial video i posted in the initial thread message. I also have one big nylon bag, but the guy uses muslin bags for grain and hops. And then he turns off the fire while he recommends to keep the temperature constant, around 65-70 celsius degrees (149-158 farenheit)
So instead of just completely turning off the fire, while boiling the wort I will add this "steamer basket"

into the bottom of the pot to avoid the bags getting in touch too much with the fire underneath, and get burnt

How did you get to 10 lbs of grain?

you mean in the mash and sparge water calculator, right? well yeah, i got that totally wrong, that was supposed to be for the 30 liters batch measurements, because 10 lbs is approximately 4.5 kg of grains so I even added more than necessary (4.1 you suggested), I will readjust the measurements

Heat source?

a normal and common kitchen stove, I also have a digital needle thermometer to keep the temperature constant

What kind of fermenter(s)?

its a 25 liter (6.6 US gal) food grade plastic barrel, i have a 3 piece airlock, and a bubbler type, I think I prefer to use the latter

Why would equipment loss be 1 gallon?

I certainly don't know about that, neither about trub loss or percentage of efficiency, nothing.
does it mean about losing water while being evaporated? that's why i dont understand calculations, because they always ask for some value I dont have any idea about. What would be the right amount of equipment and trub losses?

THANKS!

 

[IslandLizard]

The video you posted is an OK instruction, an overview. It's a bit sloppy, not complete, and using some questionable processes (e.g., hard boiling, secondaries, sanitation). However, it doesn't show all grain brewing, it shows extract brewing with steeping grains. There are many videos that explain all grain brewing, mashing, lautering, etc., worth watching some of those.
Never go by a single source.

The guy in the video is steeping grain, he later adds the extract. Although mashing is similar to steeping, it's also very different.
Please study up on terminology and processes. Read at least the online version of How to Brew I pointed to earlier, so you know what's involved and why things are done a certain way. There's a lot of good info on this forum too, but it's spread out. Or the 2 books that were already mentioned.

26 liters is about 7 (U.S.) gallons. Most talk here is in the U.S. measurement system, sorry.

Although large, your 26 liter kettle is actually a bit small for making a 20 liter all grain batch. You need to leave at least an inch of headspace in the kettle during boiling, 2 inches is better, more comfortable. The more headspace the less potential mess. It's definitely too small for a full volume 20 liter BIAB batch.
But you can make it work with partial mashes (adding some extract at the end), sparges, top ups, etc.

If you mash in the kettle, you need a way to separate the grain from the wort (lautering). BIAB is one of the easiest, most direct ways to accomplish that, and doesn't require a 2nd vessel, except for a bucket maybe. There are other methods, involving more or less specialized equipment. Inform yourself on BIAB.

Can your stove handle the boil of 20-22 liters of wort in that kettle?

Forget the steamer basket.

It's not advised to directly heat the mash (exceptions noted), as there's a real chance of overheating or scorching it. You let it rest for an hour. While resting, insulate the kettle by wrapping a thick blanket, sleeping bag, etc. around it. The mash needs to stay between 148 and 158F (64-70C) to do its conversion. The actual chosen mash temp is quite important.

That's not a barrel, it's a bucket.
It's a good fermenter, though, many of us use those, me included.