Shorter mash times for session beers?

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So I was at NHC last week in San Diego and enjoyed the seminar on 'Brewing Session Beers'. The speaker was Andy Mitchell, a brewer at New Belgium, and he had a number of good pointers for brewing session strength beers. Although I was familiar with increasing mash temps in order to produce more un-fermentables and therefore more body, I was surprised to hear him recommend a 15min mash as another way to increase the body in your final beer. He then went on to mention that New Belgium's Slow Ride session-IPA, mashes at significantly higher than 158F and significantly less than 15min. Which is pretty remarkable to me given how crisp and light that beer tastes to me.

So, I'm curious as to the experience of others here on the forum on mashing 15min or less, particularly for making session beers. I've done 30-45mins, but never less than that. Thinking of trying 15min for my next session brew, an english bitter.

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[porterpounder]

That would really save some time. I tend to do low gravity English style ales no-sparge and use a 20 minute mash with good results. I drop the mash-in liquor down to 6.0 with lactic acid which seems to help with a quicker conversion on those beers.

 

[Psylocide]

30 min mash is my standard, fine crush, biab.

Not sure I would go less than that, but that's just personal preference at this point.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

There's quite a few people that do biab with 30-45 min mashes with no consequences.

No doubt they have a long sparge process at new Belgium however so while they may only "rest" for 15 min, they probably heat are within mash temps for a longer period due to a 10-15 min sparge. That much liquid doesn't drain instantly.

I know someone whose sister works there, I'll see if he can get an answer in regards to sparge times.

 

[stpug]

There's quite a few people that do biab with 30-45 min mashes with no consequences.

No doubt they have a long sparge process at new Belgium however so while they may only "rest" for 15 min, they probably heat are within mash temps for a longer period due to a 10-15 min sparge. That much liquid doesn't drain instantly.

I know someone whose sister works there, I'll see if he can get an answer in regards to sparge times.

^^This pretty much hits the mark.

Dough in takes some amount of time for a GIANT mash tun (call it 15 minutes, but I'm sure it's a lot longer)

Mash rest is 15 minutes according to NHC speaker

Transfer to lauter tun takes some time (call it 10 minutes, but I'm sure it takes longer)

Drain runnings on a giant batch (call it 10 minutes, but I'm sure it takes a lot longer)

15+15+10+10=50 minutes at saccharification temperatures is probably the minimum they have it there.

 

[Owly055]

Conversion happens extremely rapidly at 155 and over. My shortest mash was 10 minutes in the conversion range. It cost me about 3/4 of a point on my ABV and gave more body. Conversion was 100% according to the iodine test, but fermentability was slightly reduced. A fine crush makes all the difference.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Conversion happens extremely rapidly at 155 and over. My shortest mash was 10 minutes in the conversion range. It cost me about 3/4 of a point on my ABV and gave more body. Conversion was 100% according to the iodine test, but fermentability was slightly reduced. A fine crush makes all the difference.


H.W.

conversation of all extracted starches was 100%. There's still starches in the grains that hasn't been extracted yet, so cannot be converted. Pretty misleading to say that it's 100% converted, yet it cost you 3/4 % abv. People should just report their mash effeciency, as that's what matters in these talks.

 

[Owly055]

conversation of all extracted starches was 100%. There's still starches in the grains that hasn't been extracted yet, so cannot be converted. Pretty misleading to say that it's 100% converted, yet it cost you 3/4 % abv. People should just report their mash effeciency, as that's what matters in these talks.

I must admit that I resent the implication that I must be "covering up" a drop in efficiency and only mentioning 100% starch conversion............... this is YOUR ASSUMPTION only, and is absolutely false.

The efficiency of the 10 minute mash was excellent......... in relation to my other mashes. It was not even slightly reduced.

I measure my efficiency based on OG at the fermenter , using the brewhouse efficiency calculation in Brewer's Friend. It may NOT be the way you measure efficiency, but I do it that way consistently and that's all that matters. I do not measure pre-boil gravity.....there is no point in it, nor do I measure trub loss..... I'm only interested in comparing my own efficiency batch to batch. Not comparing mine to yours.

My "10 minute mash" consisted of doughing into 130F tap water, and fast heating to 145, then slow heating to 155 over 10 minutes. My reasoning was that as I had to heat the strike water anyway, I'd just as well heat it with the grain in it. Time wise it takes no longer to heat the water with the grain in, than it does to over heat the water and add the grain. The advantage being that your grain is becoming infused with water, and starch gelatinization and other processes are taking place. It's an extremely effective system, and many of my mashes use it, but I've stretched it out to 20-30 minutes and achieve the desired attenuation as well as efficiency doing this.......... Beyond 20 minutes there really is no measurable improvement in attenuation. I use a pretty fine crush when doing this...... I have no intention of factoring in the slight increase in trub.......We can take efficiency calculations to extremes. but I see no point in it.


H.W.

 

[Cider123]

My "10 minute mash" consisted of doughing into 130F tap water, and fast heating to 145, then slow heating to 155 over 10 minutes. My reasoning was that as I had to heat the strike water anyway, I'd just as well heat it with the grain in it. Time wise it takes no longer to heat the water with the grain in, than it does to over heat the water and add the grain. The advantage being that your grain is becoming infused with water, and starch gelatinization and other processes are taking place. It's an extremely effective system, and many of my mashes use it, but I've stretched it out to 20-30 minutes and achieve the desired attenuation as well as efficiency doing this.......... Beyond 20 minutes there really is no measurable improvement in attenuation. I use a pretty fine crush when doing this...... I have no intention of factoring in the slight increase in trub.......We can take efficiency calculations to extremes. but I see no point in it.


H.W.

This short mash time stuff is very new to me, but sounds very interesting.

So, for your 10 min smash. How long are your grains in contact with the water while your heating up to mash temp? You are adding this time to the 10 min mash, then you also have the drain time I'm assuming.

I'm too nervous to try a 10 min mash, I think I'll start with a 20-30 min mash. I generally do 90 min for dry beers and 60 for everything else, including my malty brits. I have known about the high mash temps 154-158F for more mouthfeel.

I have a new 5 gallon recipe I'm trying out. I'll be a english session with 50/50 MO to wheat base grains and then maybe 8 oz of honey malt. I think I'll try this at 158F for 30 min and see what happens with wyeast 1469.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I must admit that I resent the implication that I must be "covering up" a drop in efficiency and only mentioning 100% starch conversion............... this is YOUR ASSUMPTION only, and is absolutely false.

The efficiency of the 10 minute mash was excellent......... in relation to my other mashes. It was not even slightly reduced.

I measure my efficiency based on OG at the fermenter , using the brewhouse efficiency calculation in Brewer's Friend. It may NOT be the way you measure efficiency, but I do it that way consistently and that's all that matters. I do not measure pre-boil gravity.....there is no point in it, nor do I measure trub loss..... I'm only interested in comparing my own efficiency batch to batch. Not comparing mine to yours.

My "10 minute mash" consisted of doughing into 130F tap water, and fast heating to 145, then slow heating to 155 over 10 minutes. My reasoning was that as I had to heat the strike water anyway, I'd just as well heat it with the grain in it. Time wise it takes no longer to heat the water with the grain in, than it does to over heat the water and add the grain. The advantage being that your grain is becoming infused with water, and starch gelatinization and other processes are taking place. It's an extremely effective system, and many of my mashes use it, but I've stretched it out to 20-30 minutes and achieve the desired attenuation as well as efficiency doing this.......... Beyond 20 minutes there really is no measurable improvement in attenuation. I use a pretty fine crush when doing this...... I have no intention of factoring in the slight increase in trub.......We can take efficiency calculations to extremes. but I see no point in it.


H.W.

woah buddy. I've followed and participated in your short mash thread quite a bit. Now where did i use the phrase covering up, just that if you're saying 100% conversion via idodine test thay doesn't mean that 100% of all potential starches were converted, as many people believe, just that the iodine test only shows that there is currently no unconvertered starch present in that drop of wort. Imo mash effeciency makes the most sense when discussing mash related techniques, doesn't matter how much you boil off or if you dump your trub in or not but those do effect brewhoise efficiency.

Agreed on consistency though, that's really what matters!

 

[Weezy]

conversation of all extracted starches was 100%. There's still starches in the grains that hasn't been extracted yet, so cannot be converted. Pretty misleading to say that it's 100% converted, yet it cost you 3/4 % abv. People should just report their mash effeciency, as that's what matters in these talks.

Semantics. Conversion of starches happens in moments once they're made available to the enzymes. Conversion of grain milled to flour will happen before you're done doughing in thoroughly.

And not everyone brews to the same target efficiency. Chasing high efficiency numbers can lead to problems as well.

 

[Owly055]

This short mash time stuff is very new to me, but sounds very interesting.

So, for your 10 min smash. How long are your grains in contact with the water while your heating up to mash temp? You are adding this time to the 10 min mash, then you also have the drain time I'm assuming.

I'm too nervous to try a 10 min mash, I think I'll start with a 20-30 min mash. I generally do 90 min for dry beers and 60 for everything else, including my malty brits. I have known about the high mash temps 154-158F for more mouthfeel.

I have a new 5 gallon recipe I'm trying out. I'll be a english session with 50/50 MO to wheat base grains and then maybe 8 oz of honey malt. I think I'll try this at 158F for 30 min and see what happens with wyeast 1469.

The contact time is considerable............. Dough in drops the temp to around 125. That equates to a temp rise of 20 deg to what I regard as the beginning of the mash range (145). That's about 10 minutes in warm water to become saturated and undergo some other processes presumably.

If you simply dumped the grain in water, it would take time to soak up water &c.

My thinking on this was that only a portion of the time of a typical mash is actual "conversion" time....... Other processes are taking place. Those processes do not necessarily require mash temperatures. If I preheat the water to strike temp, which is typically 10 deg above mash temp, the same amount of time is involved as if I heat the water with the grain in it. By combining the processes, I get a net savings of time.

In other words a 10 minute mash as I did it is not what most people world regard as a 10 minute mash, which would be to heat the water to 10 deg above mash temp and dough in......... that simply would not work. It's 10 minutes at conversion temp with the grain already saturated with water. Many people have done 20 and 30 minute mashes successfully using conventional methods.

The actual mash time is the time the grain is held in the conversion temp range. Conversion starts out slowly, but around 150, it happens in just a minute or so..... Conversion is greatly accelerated by higher temperatures.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

woah buddy. I've followed and participated in your short mash thread quite a bit. Now where did i use the phrase covering up, just that if you're saying 100% conversion via idodine test thay doesn't mean that 100% of all potential starches were converted, as many people believe, just that the iodine test only shows that there is currently no unconvertered starch present in that drop of wort. Imo mash effeciency makes the most sense when discussing mash related techniques, doesn't matter how much you boil off or if you dump your trub in or not but those do effect brewhoise efficiency.

Agreed on consistency though, that's really what matters!

No you did not specifically use the phrase "covering up", yet every aspect of your comments implied that I was leaving out critical efficiency information...... It suggested that my efficiency must have been way off, that starches must not have been available for conversion as a result of my short mash......... None of that is true.

I agree that starches not released for conversion will not show up as unconverted starches in an iodine test.

How I measure efficiency is not really important as long as it's consistent. Mine is measured in terms of OG in the fermenter with a known volume. I always shoot a little low in the boil so I can correct volume near the end of the boil. My trub loss is a bit under 10%, and I don't bother correcting BHE for that, so what I am really measuring is mash efficiency.

I've repeatedly made my process of doughing in to lower temp water and heating the mash to mash temp to make it clear for those who want to do very short mashes, and as you know quite a few people are doing 20-30 minute mashes successfully as a result.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't mean to come off as offensive, just that not all the info was available in that one post. I think the key is definitely in the non mash contact time during your healing process at lower temps, as it definitely helps saturate the grains and bring the starches into solution. I'm thinking about trying this out on my next small batch brew, probably a saison.

Maybe I should ask this in your main thread owly, but what do you use to keep the bag and grains away from the heat source? Do you have a false bottom, or just stir continously during the heating process?

 

[Cider123]

I also BIAB and have never scorched my bag or anything else for that matter. I believe for me, the key is in the 3 ply thick bottom of my SS kettle. You have to be careful with thin bottomed pots.

 

[pedrovic]

30 min mash is my standard, fine crush, biab.

Not sure I would go less than that, but that's just personal preference at this point.

When you reduce the time of the mash and boil, did you also notice a reduction in brewhouse efficiency?

 

[Brooothru]

^^This pretty much hits the mark.

Dough in takes some amount of time for a GIANT mash tun (call it 15 minutes, but I'm sure it's a lot longer)

Mash rest is 15 minutes according to NHC speaker

Transfer to lauter tun takes some time (call it 10 minutes, but I'm sure it takes longer)

Drain runnings on a giant batch (call it 10 minutes, but I'm sure it takes a lot longer)

15+15+10+10=50 minutes at saccharification temperatures is probably the minimum they have it there.

Agree. The aggregate of "times" add up to much more than :15 minutes.

I do a Hoch-Kurz style step mash on almost all my brews. Typical schedule is Dough-in :15 mins @ 55C, Beta rest :25 mins. @ 62C, Alpha rest :30 mins. @ 70C, and mash-out 15 mins. @ 76C. (131F-144F-158F-169F). Total time ~1:45 when you add in the heat rise time between steps. It results in somewhat 'equal' rests between the most active temperature ranges for both Alpha and Beta amylase and extra time in the 71C-72C range which supposedly aids in head retention. I get complete conversion and plenty of fermentatbles while also developing favorable body in the finished beer. The Alpha and Beta rest temperatures get altered up or down to adjust for "dryness vs. maltiness" for style, as well as adjusting the grist to included more (or fewer) non-fermentable dextrins for body.

Most contemporary brewing literature suggests the nearly all conversion happens in the first 20 minutes or so of the mash, but I feel I'm able to more fully exploit how that conversion takes place and thus manipulate how the finished beer turns out. In a "traditional" sense, my average mash is only :55 minutes (Beta + Alpha times, or a single temperature mash somewhere in between). It just takes me closer to two hours to do it.