Sanitation Issue / Wild Yeast Problem??

[stewart194]

I've been brewing for a year now. I started off with extract and brewed 7 batches before moving to all grain. Since then I've brewed around 10 more batches. My last 5 brews have been less than awesome. Each one has been thin, with very little body, head, or head retention. I'm currently bottling, and have steadily increased the amount of corn sugar to see if that would help. It seemed to help the head, but not the head retention. Still, the head goes away within a few minutes. If I pour the beers hard, it lasts longer, but within a few minutes it's completely gone again.

To top it all off, each beer has gotten worse in the bottle over time. They all seem OK after 4 weeks in the bottle, but then they eventually get super thin, tasteless, and fizzy. I've had several "gushers" that spill out the top immediately after opening. The funny thing is that all of my IPA's have been fine, no matter how long they are kept in bottles. I'm super diligent (I think) with sanitation. I used to reuse Star San for a few months (about 4 batches) but I stopped doing that to see if that was the problem. It apparently isn't as I used fresh Star San these last few batches.

Could my kitchen be full of wild yeast? Am I taking too long during the bottling process with an open bottling bucket? Are my bottles not clean enough? I rinse every bottle really well immediately after pouring a beer. I keep the bottles in boxes in the garage until I'm ready to bottle again. I don't wash the bottles with anything, I just use a bucket of Star San and soak them before bottling again...but they appear to be super clean before doing this. I have a friend that does this too and he doesn't have any problems. In fact I think I read online somewhere that Palmer said this is OK.

The only other thing I can think of, is that a few times while making a yeast starter, the foam stopper has slightly popped out of my erlenmeyer flask. (I've woken up in the morning to find it slightly popped out, I push it back in, and it doesn't do it again) But with some of these problem brews, this hasn't happened.

I thought that maybe my dip tube in my new keggle brew kettle might be the cause, but it's surely sanitized after boiling for 90 minutes...and this has happened with extract using my old brew kettle also. I've also cleaned and sanitized the vinyl tubing that goes from the valve to the carboy. I put my wort chiller in the kettle with 15 minutes left in the boil, etc, etc. And like I said, I honestly think I'm super thorough with sanitation. The weird part is that it doesn't happen with every brew, and I can't find anything in common between the good brews and bad brews that might be the culprit.

If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

 

[JoppaFarms]

You mention nothing about your recipes (which has a significant factor in head/head retention as well as flavor, body, mouthfeel and fermentability), mash process & temperature (which also has a significant factor in head/head retention as well as body, mouthfeel and fermentability), your fermentation process (temperature and time, gravity readings etc), or your bottle storage methods. Each of these plays a significant role in the life of your beer. It's not the dip tube and it doesn't sound like wild yeast (you didn't mention "off" flavors, just "lack" of flavors).

I'm a relatively new brewer myself, and I'm sure I cut corners here and there with sanitation and parts of my process, but I haven't ever had the "super thin, tasteless, and fizzy" issue you're describing. Well...fizzy yes, but that's when I accidentally overcarb'd a saison with 3711....mistake. Leaving it in the fridge for a week+ before opening it helped with the gushers. My money is on recipe, mash, and fermentation variables.

 

[kh54s10]

I agree your recipes or your processes are likely the source rather than wild yeast.

Another thing to look at for head retention is your glassware and how it is washed. Dish soap contains ingredients to lessen water spotting which will kill any head retention.

Adding more sugars will make the problem worse not better. Thinner and dryer.

 

[stewart194]

Thanks for the reply! All of these recipes are proven recipes that I've found on HBT and other reputable sites. I could post them all, but I don't think that would help anything. The IPA's that I've never had any problem with, one was a Modus Hoperandi clone, one was a Sierra Nevada Celebration clone, and the other one was one that I made up based on Bell's Two Hearted Ale. Probably just a coincidence that my IPA's have all been fine, but all of these had great body, head retention, lacing, etc.

The other recipes are fine also...one was Jamil's Oatmeal Stout, one was an American Wheat recipe from Norther Brewer, etc, etc. I realize that mash temp has a lot to do with body, but I mash at the recommended temp which is usually around 156. I batch sparge also, but what's going on has to be a sanitation issue or wild yeast issue of some sort. Some brews are fine, some aren't. And these last 5 brews have me questioning everything I'm doing. In fact I'm thinking about kegging, just to clean one keg thoroughly and minimizing my infection risk...one keg vs 50 individual bottles, less time going from the bottling bucket to the keg, etc, etc.

As for fermentation, I ferment in glass carboys. I immediately rinse and brush these with water until they're completely clean. But just like my bottles, I don't clean them with PBW or Oxyclean...I just rinse them really well and store them in boxes until I need them again. But they are crystal clear when I soak them in Star San. I also use swamp coolers to keep them at fermentation temperatures...usually around 63-65 depending on the recipe, and my beers never have off flavors. They finish super clean.

 

[stewart194]

I agree your recipes or your processes are likely the source rather than wild yeast.

Another thing to look at for head retention is your glassware and how it is washed. Dish soap contains ingredients to lessen water spotting which will kill any head retention.

Adding more sugars will make the problem worse not better. Thinner and dryer.

Thanks! I've seen this on the forums also. I've read where Yooper said to scrub them with salt and things like that. But all of the commercial beers I buy do just fine in my pint glasses regarding head, head retention, lacing, etc. These problem beers go bad, and you can tell it even when you drink them straight from the bottle.

 

[duboman]

I've read this whole thread and everything I'm reading leads you process, not wild yeast or infection.

Questions:
1. Is your thermometer calibrated? It sounds as though you are mashing lower than you think.
2. Are your ingredients fresh and crushed properly for good extraction? You mention nothing about your efficiency or hitting gravity and volumes
3. How are you priming? Are you weighing your sugar? Are you calculating for the finished volume of beer? At what volume of c02 are you priming for? Is your beer at FG before packaging?

Your description of thin, fizzy, no body, no head or retention are all things that the above questions pertain to.

Infections and wild yeast would be described as sour, vinegar, visual pellicles, bad taste and smell, off putting. You mention none of these descriptors

My suggestion is to first calibrate your thermometer and ensure it is correct so you know you're mashing at the correct temp. Be sure you are hitting your pre-boil volume and gravity. Proper boil. Hitting post boil volume and gravity. Mashing in with the correct volume and sparging the same. Using fresh ingredients, making starters or pitching properly as well as aerating the wort and controlling ferm temp. Using a priming calculator for finished volume of beer.

Finally, water......
If you don't have a water report, get one. Use R/O or bottled water for a batch and see if there's a difference. Read the water stickie in brewing science forum. Most likely your water is ok as long as you're not experiencing phenolic issues but beer is mostly water so better water makes better beer

 

[stewart194]

Thanks duboman.

1. My thermometer is calibrated. It is digital and I calibrate it before every brew session. I also have a standard meat thermometer that I've checked it against, so we're good there.

2. My ingredients are always fresh and I order everything through Northern Brewer. I get around 75% efficiency and I always hit my volume and proper gravity numbers. (Not always completely on the money if I'm making the recipe for the first time, but it's always close these days...then I take notes and adjust for the next time)

3. I'm priming with corn sugar. I always start off with 5 oz for 5 gallons and adjust from there. The last few I bumped it up to 6 oz and it helped quite a bit. Yes, I wait until I know the actual finished volume of beer in the bottling bucket before making the corn sugar / water solution, then I add it in and gently swirl it with a big spoon a few times to mix it in.

It's just really strange that it happens to some of my brews and not others. I've made some really great beers. But these last 4 or 5 in a row have had this issue. Here are some examples. I made an Oatmeal Stout about 4 months ago. After 4 weeks in the bottle it was really tasty. It didn't have great head, head retention, or lacing like I think a creamy Oatmeal Stout should have. The recipe was solid, it had a pound of Oatmeal in it, I hit all my numbers, etc, etc. If I poured it hard, it was a pretty awesome beer. If I poured it like normal, the head and head retention are almost non existent. Whatever is there, is gone in two minutes. Now the body of this beer was completely fine at first, but around the 6 week mark it started slowly getting fizzy and thin. I don't know how else to describe it. Even if you pour it hard, the head is really fizzy like soda, and dissipates really fast. The flavor of the beer changes drastically at this point also. It doesn't taste sour, or vinegary, or bad...the flavors just kind of fade away and it just tastes really weak and watery. At around the 12 week mark, I start getting gushers, and the beer is so thin and tastleess that I just have to pour them out.

Another one was a Blue Moon clone. Same exact thing. It also had a pound of Oatmeal in it. It should be fairly creamy I would think with decent head and head retention, but it was pretty flat from the start. It also finished really dry. But just like the Oatmeal Stout, it gets worse with age, super fizzy, and final I end up with gushers. No bottle bombs, just gushers that are undrinkable at that point.

I've got my strike water temp dialed in for the perfect mash temp. My cooler holds it perfectly for an hour also. I'm aerating properly, making yeast starters with the right pitch rate. (Usually 1.5 liters for most of my brews) I usually do a 1.3 quart per pound grain to water ratio for my mash, then sparge with a volume that will get me to my desired pre boil volume. It's usually about 4 gallons of water for my mash and 5 gallons of sparge water...giving me around 7.5 gallons of wort pre boil, and I boil off 2 gallons in 90 minutes leaving me with 5.5 gallons of wort. My kettle with the dip tube leaves a little behind so I normally end up with about 5.25 gallons going into the carboy.

As for water, I did find my city water report online, but I have an RO system in my house and use that. My first 3 batches had a burnt bandaid flavor that I found out was caused by Chloromines. I started using Campden tablets and that taste went away immediately. The only other thing I add to my RO water is a few teaspoons of Gypsum and or Calcium Chloride depending on the beer I'm brewing.

I really enjoy brewing and like every new hobby I get into, I dive in head first. I've listened to hours and hours of podcasts, I take really great notes every time I brew, I've spent hours and hours on this forum, etc, etc. I REALLY want to make great beer every time. Up until recently, I've been making pretty decent beer. My first two brews on my new All Grain system turned out great. Two IPA's. I have about 8 beers each still in bottles that I planned on giving out for Christmas. If I crack one open tonight, it would still be perfect. But my brews I've done after that...an Oatmeal Stout, Coffee Stout, American Wheat, Watermelon Wheat, Belgian Wit, Irish Red, and Scottish Heavy...I've experienced problems with. Nothing obvious has changed, and I just can't figure it out. It's making me hesitant to brew again...although I think I'll do another IPA this weekend, be CRAZY about my sanitation, wash the bottles in Oxyclean, etc, etc.

I really don't think it's a carbonation issue. I think it has to be a sanitation issue of some sort. Maybe just a mild sanitation issue that doesn't make the beer super sour or cause off flavors...just enough to mess them up over time. I don't know.

 

[stewart194]

I forgot to add that I'm also measuring the pH of my mash, and using Lactic Acid to get it into the 5.3 range. Usually it's about 5.7 using RO water, and takes about 1.5ml to get it into the range. I'm still tweaking this though for each beer, and my Oatmeal Stout didn't require any Lactic Acid.

One other thing, I reuse my yeast. Well, I don't reuse it after fermentation...I make a 2 liter starter with a brand new package and save 500ml of it each time. I boil a canning jar and lid, let it cool, then add 500ml to it and put it in my fridge for the next time. On the next brew, I make another 2 liter starter with that yeast, and save back another 500ml for the next one. I've read that I can do this about 6 times before having to buy another smack pack from WYeast.

If one of my starters got infected, and I kept reusing the infected yeast, that would totally explain my problem. But on at least two of these beers, the American Wheat and the Scottish Heavy, I started with a fresh package of yeast and got the same results. Like I said, the only problem I've had with starters, is the foam stopper getting pushed out of the top of my flask. Surely bad stuff could have gotten into those starters, but the open gap wasn't that wide. And again, that's only happened a few times. Most of these bad batches, this has not happened to.

 

[duboman]

Hey,
Just noticed you're a JayHawk! Me too, all though it's been quite awhile.......Honestly, everything I have to offer, I've offered for suggested solutions and you answered all of them!

The only thing I can suggest is to find someone around you that can sample with detail and go from there. Perhaps get in touch with the brewer over at FreeState for some insight or inquire about a local BJCP judge/club that can perhaps offer up something better. Honestly, I don't think it's an infection or wild yeast. With your explained process it would be hard to fathom, especially without the typical descriptors of infection.

Good luck and don't give up, it's probably something right under your nose

 

[stewart194]

Hey,
Just noticed you're a JayHawk! Me too, all though it's been quite awhile.......Honestly, everything I have to offer, I've offered for suggested solutions and you answered all of them!

The only thing I can suggest is to find someone around you that can sample with detail and go from there. Perhaps get in touch with the brewer over at FreeState for some insight or inquire about a local BJCP judge/club that can perhaps offer up something better. Honestly, I don't think it's an infection or wild yeast. With your explained process it would be hard to fathom, especially without the typical descriptors of infection.

Good luck and don't give up, it's probably something right under your nose

We're definitely big Jayhawk fans! Very cool that you went to KU. Thanks again for the reply. That's why I'm so stumped on this one and finally decided to ask for help. It just doesn't make sense. And it's happened with a few of my extract batches also, so it's not just something new with All Grain or my AG equipment.

Talking to Steve or the other brewers at Free State might be tough, they are super busy I'm sure these days since Free State beer is kicking a$$...but we do have a brewers guild here that I've been meaning to join. The funny thing is that I wanted to wait until I had great beer to bring to the meetings...but that's kind of the point of joining is to get help and advice so that you can make great beer! Probably time to do that!

 

[stewart194]

So, going back through my notes and thinking about this logically, here are some follow up questions.

1. Does the ball valve attached to my keg brew kettle need cleaned, or does it get sanitized by temperature during the 90 minute boil? I've never cleaned this thoroughly, but after every brew session I run clean water through it and the vinyl tubing. Could this be my problem? Running cooled wort through a slightly dirty ball valve?

2. While it's boiling, I take a brush and clean the vinyl tubing with water, then I fill it with Star San and leave it for a few minutes and empty it out. Should I be using Oxyclean or PBW, then Star San for this? Again, it looks clean to me before putting Star San in it, but I've never used a real cleaner.

3. Do most people clean their bottles and carboy with cleaner? Or do most just do what I do, clean and rinse them both really well with water immediately after brewing / pouring a beer? There is always a tiny bit of water in the bottles and carboy before I put them in the boxes for storage, but I would think that it would evaporate fairly quickly but I'm not really sure. Could that water sitting in the bottom get funky and be causing my issues? Even though I soak both in Star San right before using them again?

4. The only other thing I know to do at this point, is to replace my yeast with a fresh smack pack and see what happens. Maybe storing yeast in the refrigerator in mason jars over long periods of time isn't good? I always use them to make a new starter, but I have about 10 different yeasts and it can be several months before I use some of them again.

5. While I'm brewing and the wort is boiling, I usually fill the carboy with Star San and let it sit for 15 minutes. About 45 minutes before I'm ready to put the cooled wort in it, I turn it upside down and put it in one of those circular carboy holders to let the foam drain out. Could bugs and wild yeast be crawling up inside the carboy during this time? Also, there is always Star San foam in there that I can't shake out. I've heard "Don't fear the foam", so I don't. I pour the wort into the carboy with the foam in it, which rises to the top. I'm always left with a "rainbow" colored sheen on top that looks like oil. I've even seen it in the bottling bucket after fermentation. Could this be killing my head and head retention?

If anyone else has any ideas or advice, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!

 

[duboman]

So, going back through my notes and thinking about this logically, here are some follow up questions.

1. Does the ball valve attached to my keg brew kettle need cleaned, or does it get sanitized by temperature during the 90 minute boil? I've never cleaned this thoroughly, but after every brew session I run clean water through it and the vinyl tubing. Could this be my problem? Running cooled wort through a slightly dirty ball valve?Yes, these items should be taken apart and cleaned with OXY or PBW. Basically anything cold side needs to be cleaned and sanitized as that is when the wort is susceptible to the nasties

2. While it's boiling, I take a brush and clean the vinyl tubing with water, then I fill it with Star San and leave it for a few minutes and empty it out. Should I be using Oxyclean or PBW, then Star San for this? Again, it looks clean to me before putting Star San in it, but I've never used a real cleaner.
Yes, again
3. Do most people clean their bottles and carboy with cleaner? Or do most just do what I do, clean and rinse them both really well with water immediately after brewing / pouring a beer? There is always a tiny bit of water in the bottles and carboy before I put them in the boxes for storage, but I would think that it would evaporate fairly quickly but I'm not really sure. Could that water sitting in the bottom get funky and be causing my issues? Even though I soak both in Star San right before using them again?
Yes again, I do the same with bottles but periodically I do go through them with a brush and PBW to ensure they are clean prior to sanitizing. The Carboy/buckets definietly get cleaned and sanitized prior to adding the cooled wort-ALWAYS!
4. The only other thing I know to do at this point, is to replace my yeast with a fresh smack pack and see what happens. Maybe storing yeast in the refrigerator in mason jars over long periods of time isn't good? I always use them to make a new starter, but I have about 10 different yeasts and it can be several months before I use some of them again.
I don't really see this being an issue as long as your sanitation is proper prior to storing the yeast. This is exactly how I do it
5. While I'm brewing and the wort is boiling, I usually fill the carboy with Star San and let it sit for 15 minutes. About 45 minutes before I'm ready to put the cooled wort in it, I turn it upside down and put it in one of those circular carboy holders to let the foam drain out. Could bugs and wild yeast be crawling up inside the carboy during this time? Also, there is always Star San foam in there that I can't shake out. I've heard "Don't fear the foam", so I don't. I pour the wort into the carboy with the foam in it, which rises to the top. I'm always left with a "rainbow" colored sheen on top that looks like oil. I've even seen it in the bottling bucket after fermentation. Could this be killing my head and head retention?
Star San is only viable when wet so at 45 minutes most likely it is already drying out and becoming less effective. Don't fear the foam and let it stay wet
If anyone else has any ideas or advice, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!

 

[stewart194]

Thanks again Duboman. I will make sure my carboy is still wet with Star San before filling. I usually sanitize all of my bottles and let them dry in my dishwasher rack before transferring the beer to the bottling bucket / making my priming sugar solution...so I bet those bottles are dry by the time I get around to filling them. Maybe this is my problem. I'll clean everything with Oxyclean next time also before sanitizing.

I'll just replace the tubing since I have extra, and my ball valve isn't the king that I can take apart, but I will clean that as good as I can. Should I do the dip tube also, or can I skip that since it's on the hot side?

 

[duboman]

While hot side isn't as big an issue as cold side, cleaning is still important but things are sanitized with the boil, cold side is where diligence is key!

 

[IslandLizard]

Most possible causes have been covered already and I do think you are dealing with (small) infections. Cleaning and sanitizing are 2 different things. Clean first, sanitize next. Water alone does not clean very well. You need help from a detergent/cleaner. Cleaning and brushing the insides of racking canes and hoses is also highly recommended, as anything else touching your chilled wort and beer.

PBW is a wonderful cleaner and doesn't ruin head retention. It is mostly 70% "Oxyclean" and 30% sodium metasilicate (a TSP substitute). I mix my own to save a few $$. I also use a lot of washing soda, aka laundry booster (this is not baking soda). It is also a good cleaner, but not as active as PBW. If you buy it, make sure it is 100% sodium carbonate, and unscented. Great for cleaning bottles etc. and very cheap.

After initial cleaning and rinsing with warm water, I always brush the carboys very well with 1-2 gallons of a warm PBW solution and let it soak for a while, shaking occasionally. You can drain and save that PBW solution for cleaning other things that same day, like bottles. Rinse the carboys well with warm water (at least 3-4 changes of 3/4 gallon each) and sanitize with a gallon or 2 of Starsan, shaking them up very well, and let them sit for at least 1/2 hour shaking or rolling a few times during that time. I drain most of the Starsan back into my bucket, but leave a quart or so behind. Plastic wrap around the neck and opening and they're ready for storage and the next batch.

Your bottles may need a thorough scrub with PBW or washing soda and a bottle brush. Rinse well afterwards. I use one of those jet sprayers that screws into the faucet.

Grain is covered with lacto. Don't mill in the same area as you brew, or you may get a lot of lacto in the air, that lands on things. Same for dumping milled grain into a mash tun.

Hope you can narrow it down, the culprit is somewhere in your process.

 

[stewart194]

Thanks again Duboman and IslandLizard. I really appreciate it.

IslandLizard - I also think it has to be a mild sanitation issue of some sort. The way the head fizzes, the gushers I get eventually, getting worse as the beer ages, etc.

I will clean and scrub everything with Oxyclean before Sanitizing and see what happens. (I still have a hard time believing that if my bottles and carboys look crystal clear, with no chunks of stuff whatsoever, that Star San won't sanitize it, but I will take everyone's advice and do this!)

One other thing I just thought of. These have been 5 gallon batches done in my 15.5 gallon keg brew kettle. I usually just use the garden hose to clean my copper wort chiller before I throw it in the boil at 15 minutes. But because it's only 5 gallons, the wort only fills about 1/3 of it. Because of this, my wort chiller is way taller than the amount of boiling beer I have. After the boil, I start swirling the wort chiller around in circles to get it to cool faster....but, only the portion of the wort chiller that was in the boil would be sanitized.

So maybe the cold wort is splashing around on the portion of the wort chiller that hasn't been sanitized? Or would the steam from the boil sanitize the top of the wort chiller?

Either way, I will scrub the wort chiller with Oxyclean and sanitize it with Star San before throwing it in the boil just to be safe.

 

[kh54s10]

Thanks again Duboman and IslandLizard. I really appreciate it.

IslandLizard - I also think it has to be a mild sanitation issue of some sort. The way the head fizzes, the gushers I get eventually, getting worse as the beer ages, etc.

I will clean and scrub everything with Oxyclean before Sanitizing and see what happens. (I still have a hard time believing that if my bottles and carboys look crystal clear, with no chunks of stuff whatsoever, that Star San won't sanitize it, but I will take everyone's advice and do this!)

One other thing I just thought of. These have been 5 gallon batches done in my 15.5 gallon keg brew kettle. I usually just use the garden hose to clean my copper wort chiller before I throw it in the boil at 15 minutes. But because it's only 5 gallons, the wort only fills about 1/3 of it. Because of this, my wort chiller is way taller than the amount of boiling beer I have. After the boil, I start swirling the wort chiller around in circles to get it to cool faster....but, only the portion of the wort chiller that was in the boil would be sanitized.

So maybe the cold wort is splashing around on the portion of the wort chiller that hasn't been sanitized? Or would the steam from the boil sanitize the top of the wort chiller?

Either way, I will scrub the wort chiller with Oxyclean and sanitize it with Star San before throwing it in the boil just to be safe.

The steam should be enough to sanitize the chiller. I still think the problem is not due to sanitation. Maybe something to do with cleaning but not with infection.

Has the problem been mostly with one style of beer?

Water is often the source of problems and shows up in light beers more than darker ones.

 

[stewart194]

The steam should be enough to sanitize the chiller. I still think the problem is not due to sanitation. Maybe something to do with cleaning but not with infection.

Has the problem been mostly with one style of beer?

Water is often the source of problems and shows up in light beers more than darker ones.

Thanks for the reply. Out of my 7 or so Extract Batches I started doing last year, it only happened to my Oatmeal Stout and Coffee Stout. They were completely fine until about 4 months in the bottles, and then I started getting a few random gushers here and there. By 6 months, they were all gushers.

Out of the 10 or so All Grain batches I've done this year, only my IPA's have not had these problems...but those tend to all get consumed before they reach the 3 month mark, so I'm not sure if I would get a few gushers later on or not. These were brewed when my AG equipment was brand new also, when the ball valve, etc hadn't had a chance to get dirty yet. But I honestly don't think it has anything to do the style of beer. It's happened on all of the beers I listed in the previous post, which is a wide range of different styles. I use RO water and add a few teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and Gypsum. (And a 1/4 of a Campden Tablet because our city water is treated with Chloromines)

The only other thing I thought of last night, is that I've brewed a few of these problem beers in my garage. I usually brew outside, but it's been raining the last several brew sessions. I have a fan turned on so I don't get carbon monoxide poisoning. Maybe while I'm stirring my wort chiller around in the kettle for 25 minutes, with the lid off the kettle, the fan has been blowing wild nasty stuff in my beer? Either way, I will brew this next batch outside, sanitize the wort chiller, and just leave the lid on and not stir it until it's cool. With the highs in the 50's now, I probably don't need to stir it anyway.

How would my problem be with cleaning, but not be with sanitation?

Thanks again!

 

[IslandLizard]

...[Oatmeal Stout] but around the 6 week mark it started slowly getting fizzy and thin....
...[Clue Moon Clone] But just like the Oatmeal Stout, it gets worse with age, super fizzy, and final I end up with gushers. No bottle bombs, just gushers that are undrinkable at that point....

Those are indications of an infection. Here's some irony. At the Homebrewers conference this year every participant was given a can of some local brew. The cans were hard as a rock and over those 3 days we experienced very fizzy pours, gushers, and even ruptured cans, where the crimped lid popped up. The beer also tasted thin, slightly sour and overcarbonated, yet was very drinkable actually. I enjoyed quite a few of those.

Although the cause remains unknown, the consensus was that an infection had crept in during the fermentation or canning process. The brewery apparently had used a canning truck for the occasion.

Another example:
I have a saison here that must have gotten a slight infection most likely after racking, or something in the reused yeast that took advantage after the sacc strain was done. A few white foamy specks appeared on the surface, but not the classic hazy sheet of a full blown lacto infection that takes over in days. That saison (originally finished at 1.006) has been very slowly "after-fermenting" ever since for the past 3 weeks, but still tastes amazing, and is super clear. Now off flavors in a saison are hard to trace and pretty much anything not too obnoxious goes, all the way to outright funky.

I just got an inspiration: Bottling bucket!
If you've been using a bottling bucket with one of those plastic spigots on the bottom, your infection could come from there. Aside from the rubber washer, the nut, the exposed threads, and the spigot itself (with the little handle) which all need to be cleaned and sanitized meticulously (assemble wet), the main body itself consists of 2 plastic barrels (about 1 inch diameter) that allow you to turn the spigot while leaving the nut and outer barrel in place. That narrow space between those 2 barrels can harbor some nasties over time. To separate them, you got to soak the spigot assembly in very hot water for a minute or so, to be able to pull (or push) them apart. Then scrub well with a hose brush and some PBW, and sanitize. Or buy a new one.

 

[stewart194]

Those are indications of an infection. Here's some irony. At the Homebrewers conference this year every participant was given a can of some local brew. The cans were hard as a rock and over those 3 days we experienced very fizzy pours, gushers, and even ruptured cans, where the crimped lid popped up. The beer also tasted thin, slightly sour and overcarbonated, yet was very drinkable actually. I enjoyed quite a few of those.

Although the cause remains unknown, the consensus was that an infection had crept in during the fermentation or canning process. The brewery apparently had used a canning truck for the occasion.

Another example:
I have a saison here that must have gotten a slight infection most likely after racking, or something in the reused yeast that took advantage after the sacc strain was done. A few white foamy specks appeared on the surface, but not the classic hazy sheet of a full blown lacto infection that takes over in days. That saison (originally finished at 1.006) has been very slowly "after-fermenting" ever since for the past 3 weeks, but still tastes amazing, and is super clear. Now off flavors in a saison are hard to trace and pretty much anything not too obnoxious goes, all the way to outright funky.

I just got an inspiration: Bottling bucket!
If you've been using a bottling bucket with one of those plastic spigots on the bottom, your infection could come from there. Aside from the rubber washer, the nut, the exposed threads, and the spigot itself (with the little handle) which all need to be cleaned and sanitized meticulously (assemble wet), the main body itself consists of 2 plastic barrels (about 1 inch diameter) that allow you to turn the spigot while leaving the nut and outer barrel in place. That narrow space between those 2 barrels can harbor some nasties over time. To separate them, you got to soak the spigot assembly in very hot water for a minute or so, to be able to pull (or push) them apart. Then scrub well with a hose brush and some PBW, and sanitize. Or buy a new one.

That's exactly what's happening to me. The beers still don't have any off flavors and all finish clean...they are just thin and fizzy...and start losing their flavor. I drink most of them anyway...but an Oatmeal Stout is not supposed to be "light and refreshing"!! And I've never had a "real" infection. I've never seen anything funky in my carboy while fermenting. I've always suspected that it happens at some point during the bottling process.

Thanks again man. I do use a plastic bottling bucket with a plastic spigot, rubber washer, etc. I have never cleaned that thing either. I just run water through it right after I'm done using it, then run some Star San through it right before bottling. I'm honestly feeling pretty stupid right now. I didn't even think of this. I will definitely clean this also.

I'm brewing a 10 gallon batch of IPA this weekend. I will clean and sanitize EVERYTHING. I'm also going to use my "old" yeast in one 5 gallon carboy and brand new yeast in the other. That should rule that in or out. I will report back after a few brew sessions!

 

[IslandLizard]

Whether small and slow or full blown together with a thick pellicle blanket, they are all infections. Some of them can yield better beer, if designed that way (sours, lambics), but most are unwanted, giving you thin, fizzy, sourish beer or totally undesirably flavors and mouthfeel.

I really hope that overlooked spigot was the ultimate cause. Now you'll be brewing an IPA, which style has given you the least trouble. Perhaps the IPA's abundance of hops releases enough antibacterial agents keeping the pesty bugs down. So an IPA would not test the eradication of a persistent equipment related infection, per se.

 

[stewart194]

Whether small and slow or full blown together with a thick pellicle blanket, they are all infections. Some of them can yield better beer, if designed that way (sours, lambics), but most are unwanted, giving you thin, fizzy, sourish beer or totally undesirably flavors and mouthfeel.

I really hope that overlooked spigot was the ultimate cause. Now you'll be brewing an IPA, which style has given you the least trouble. Perhaps the IPA's abundance of hops releases enough antibacterial agents keeping the pesty bugs down. So an IPA would not test the eradication of a persistent equipment related infection, per se.

True, and I completely agree, but I'm out of IPA! It will still be a good test regardless. The hops might have been saving me on those beers, but like I said, IPA's don't last very long at my house...so I don't know if they would have been infected after 5 months or not. Actually, I brewed an IPA last November, and I tried one of those about a month ago. Zero signs of infection...but the hops have completely fallen out and it doesn't even taste like an IPA anymore. But I just recently learned that IPA's need to be consumed before they reach that stage.

But I do think the culprit could very well be my bottling bucket spigot. Could also be the other things mentioned like not using a cleaner to clean my carboys, bottles, kettle ball valve, vinyl tubing, etc. I've also never used a cleaner to clean my siphoning device that transfers the beer from the carboy to the bottling bucket, or the bottle filler tube that attaches to the spigot.

I'll just make damn sure from here on out that I clean and sanitize every single part meticulously...every time I brew. I didn't get "lazy" with sanitation, I guess I just didn't know that cleaning with water before sanitizing wasn't good enough. If it looked completely clean to me and there wasn't any visible gunk anywhere...I just assumed Star San would take care of the rest. Lesson learned!

 

[phuff7129]

Using 5 or 6 oz of corn sugar in 5 gallons is carbonating around 2.75 to 3 vols of carbonation which is high for most styles. For most ales 2.3 vols of carbonation is enough and that would be 4 oz of corn sugar for 5 gallons. Over carbonation could be 1 piece of the puzzle.

 

[stewart194]

Using 5 or 6 oz of corn sugar in 5 gallons is carbonating around 2.75 to 3 vols of carbonation which is high for most styles. For most ales 2.3 vols of carbonation is enough and that would be 4 oz of corn sugar for 5 gallons. Over carbonation could be 1 piece of the puzzle.

Thanks for the reply. I think my mild infection is killing my head and head retention. That is probably why my 6 oz in 5 gallons didn't seem to make much difference. I will stick to my normal 5 oz for 5 gallons with the IPA I brew this weekend and see what happens. This is another good test and I'm glad you brought this up. If 5 oz seems to be too much this time, then I will assume that ALL of the batches I've ever brewed have been mildly infected...which would make sense, since I've apparently NEVER cleaned my equipment properly.

Thanks again!

 

[stewart194]

I have one last follow up question.

If I clean all of these parts with PBW or Oxyclean, can I do this several days in advance? Or should I do it right before sanitizing?

If I clean everything today, will the parts be alright in a box until I can sanitize them before brewing this weekend?

(Now I'm super paranoid again about sanitation...but maybe that's the way it should be to avoid infections!)

 

[IslandLizard]

You can clean them many days or even weeks in advance.

Clean ==> rinse well ==> sanitize ==> assemble wet
​

Try to keep things clean when stored away. Some vessels benefit from leaving some Starsan behind, like carboys and jars.
You could put a piece of sanitized (dripping) plastic wrap around faucets and things, but that's usually not needed.

Some equipment needs to be sanitized and assembled wet each time before use, like racking canes and hoses, SS fermentors, siphons, bottle wands, picnic taps, etc.

Always sanitize again right before use.

I always have a bucket and medium sized tote with Starsan on standby. I keep a loose lid on them to keep dust and dirt out. There are always several pieces such as racking canes, wine thiefs, and hoses soaking in them.

As long as your Starsan has a pH of around 2.3 (or lower) it is working. Adjust with some Phosphoric acid. Using distilled or RO water keeps Starsan fresh longer. The slight haze does not affect performance.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, if you don't have one yet, a spray bottle with Starsan solution is one of the best sanitizing tools you can own.
Don't OCD on sanitation, it should not take over your life. After a short time it all becomes second nature. Use common sense to eradicate this infection once and for all, and analyze each piece your cooled wort or beer touches and review if it's clean and sanitized. Like that overlooked spigot barrel, nut, and washer.

 

[stewart194]

You can clean them many days or even weeks in advance.

Clean ==> rinse well ==> sanitize ==> assemble wet
​

Try to keep things clean when stored away. Some vessels benefit from leaving some Starsan behind, like carboys and jars.
You could put a piece of sanitized (dripping) plastic wrap around faucets and things, but that's usually not needed.

Some equipment needs to be sanitized and assembled wet each time before use, like racking canes and hoses, SS fermentors, siphons, bottle wands, picnic taps, etc.

Always sanitize again right before use.

I always have a bucket and medium sized tote with Starsan on standby. I keep a loose lid on them to keep dust and dirt out. There are always several pieces such as racking canes, wine thiefs, and hoses soaking in them.

As long as your Starsan has a pH of around 2.3 (or lower) it is working. Adjust with some Phosphoric acid. Using distilled or RO water keeps Starsan fresh longer. The slight haze does not affect performance.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, if you don't have one yet, a spray bottle with Starsan solution is one of the best sanitizing tools you can own.
Don't OCD on sanitation, it should not take over your life. After a short time it all becomes second nature. Use common sense to eradicate this infection once and for all, and analyze each piece your cooled wort or beer touches and review if it's clean and sanitized. Like that overlooked spigot barrel, nut, and washer.

Thanks again. I really appreciate all of the advice. I will scrub and clean everything thoroughly this week and leave everything in our spare bedroom so it won't get dusty until the weekend.

I do have a spray bottle with Star San that I use, and I used to keep a 5 gallon bucket of Star San mixed with RO water that I would use for a few months before replacing. I've checked the pH a few times also and it's always under the range...but I'm going to use fresh stuff for a while just to be safe.

 

[stewart194]

Over the weekend I brewed my first 10 gallon batch. I ended up doing an variation of an IPA that I've done a few times. The day before brewing, I took apart EVERYTHING that I possibly could and cleaned it really well with Oxyclean. All of the parts were fairly clean to start with, except the parts on the "Hot" side of my brew kettle ball valve. The dip tube and the connectors leading to the ball valve were pretty gummed up and sticky. I cleaned them really well, and put new Teflon tape on all of the fittings.

Since these are on the hot side, was this really necessary? Do I need to clean them every time I brew?

I also cleaned my carboys, blow off tubes, aeration stir stick, etc really well. Cleaning these parts make sense to me since they are on the cold side...but I'm curious about whether or not you guys clean the hot side parts before brewing each time.

What do you do?

Thanks again! Everyone has been super helpful and I really appreciate it.

 

[stewart194]

For anyone interested, I found out that the cause of these issues was definitely from not cleaning my bottles before sanitizing them. Even though I rinsed them really well, and even though several friends of mine get away with it, it was definitely the cause of my slight sanitation issues. I cleaned EVERYTHING with Oxyclean before sanitizing...on both the hot side and cold side. Every little piece I could take apart, every nook and cranny, everything.

I bottled a final 8 gallons of beer and filled up all of my 20 oz bottles plus one growler. With all of those bottles, I soaked them in Oxyclean and ran a brush through them. I was left with ten 12 oz bottles worth of beer, so just as an experiment I did not clean them with Oxyclean, only sanitized them with Star San before bottling. Guess what? 8 out of 10 bottles were gushers. Even though I rinsed them all VERY thoroughly before putting them away in boxes. NONE of the bottles I cleaned AND sanitized had any signs of infection.

So while cleaning the hot and cold side of everything like I did definitely didn't hurt anything, the final culprit in my case, was caused by not cleaning my bottles before sanitizing.

Lesson learned!