Sanitary Herms Rig for a cheap skate

[Dennisusa]

I'm trying to do the impossible - design a “sanitary” tri-clover Herms rig on the cheap. But I'm running into problems and need some help (please go easy on my dumb noob questions):

(1) Is it plausible to create “near-sanitary” connections by silver-soldering 1/2” tubing into male NPT ends of tri-clovers? I was inspired by the magnificent HBT forums on dimple-tool silver-soldering and the thread on soldering tubing into swagelock male NPTs.

(2) How can I connect my HLT SS 1/2” herms coil to the keggle without the typical Swagelok compression elbow to make the 90 bend? Without risking kinking my coil, I can't approach the keggle wall at right angles for a traditional triclover connection. I noticed Swagelok has a socket-weld 90 elbow and wondered if I could silver-soldered tubing in there as a near-sanitary option (he shamelessly reveal his cheap skate side yet again)?

(3) How can I create a sanitary connection with the centrifugal pumps (they all seem to have threads)? Could the SS threads be cut off a Chugger and a triclover welded in its place without the heat distorting the impeller housing?

Even though I'll probably use non-triclover thermometer and sight-glass fittings, at least these dead legs are easy to breakdown and clean individually. But if the wort-flow path can be CIP'd, then equipment breakdown would be minimal and my clean-up a breeze. A noble goal, surely.

 

[bdjohns1]

I'm trying to do the impossible - design a “sanitary” tri-clover Herms rig on the cheap. But I'm running into problems and need some help (please go easy on my dumb noob questions):

(1) Is it plausible to create “near-sanitary” connections by silver-soldering 1/2” tubing into male NPT ends of tri-clovers? I was inspired by the magnificent HBT forums on dimple-tool silver-soldering and the thread on soldering tubing into swagelock male NPTs.

(2) How can I connect my HLT SS 1/2” herms coil to the keggle without the typical Swagelok compression elbow to make the 90 bend? Without risking kinking my coil, I can't approach the keggle wall at right angles for a traditional triclover connection. I noticed Swagelok has a socket-weld 90 elbow and wondered if I could silver-soldered tubing in there as a near-sanitary option (he shamelessly reveal his cheap skate side yet again)?

(3) How can I create a sanitary connection with the centrifugal pumps (they all seem to have threads)? Could the SS threads be cut off a Chugger and a triclover welded in its place without the heat distorting the impeller housing?

Even though I'll probably use non-triclover thermometer and sight-glass fittings, at least these dead legs are easy to breakdown and clean individually. But if the wort-flow path can be CIP'd, then equipment breakdown would be minimal and my clean-up a breeze. A noble goal, surely.

Not dumb questions at all.

1) Sanitary connections are by definition free of crevices where anything can be trapped. If you solder the connection so that the threaded surfaces that the product could possibly contact are covered, that's a start. Polish it up nice and smooth (at least 180 or 220 grit). One thought - it might be cheaper to just buy a tri-clamp end cap, bore out a hole matching the tube OD, fit, and solder in place on the inside of the cap and the outside.

2) that could work. Another option might be to just take the coil out the top of the keg, and do the bored-out tri-clamp caps again.

3) Not sure if it would distort. I'd ask Chugger about that. I just settled on that part and did tri-clamp FNPT fittings on my March pumps. If one of the vendors offered a tri-clamp option, I'd be all over it, especially when a pair of TC ferrules is only $6-8.

If you're doing hose barbs, those are also going to technically need to be torn down - the end of the barb meeting the hose Is a potential harborage point. We use sanitary hoses at work (my day job is at a cheese plant), and they're heavy, not all that flexible, and obscenely expensive.

 

[Dennisusa]

1) Sanitary connections are by definition free of crevices where anything can be trapped. If you solder the connection so that the threaded surfaces that the product could possibly contact are covered, that's a start. Polish it up nice and smooth (at least 180 or 220 grit). One thought - it might be cheaper to just buy a tri-clamp end cap, bore out a hole matching the tube OD, fit, and solder in place on the inside of the cap and the outside.

If you're doing hose barbs, those are also going to technically need to be torn down

Do you know whether a tube's 1/2" OD will mate nicely into one of these fittings so that I don't have to drill a hole? If neither will work I could drill the end-cap as you suggest, but I worry that the reduce surface area again the tubing would make for a weaker connection. The Swagelok socket-weld 90 is how I was hoping to handle all my elbows.

This is how I was hoping to do all my "sanitary" connection on the cheap. Do you know enough about soldering that you think this will work? I had not thought about the hose barbs contamination, bdjohns1, but as the whole rig will be hard-plumbed except the hose to the CFC I can deal with cleaning the hose barb.

 

[klyph]

Once you solder the coil in place, it won't be removable. Also, a soldered compression fitting wont be any more sanitary than a threaded one. They do make 1/2" triclamps that could be welded to the coil and kettle. I think your best bet is to become good buddies with a good tig welder.

 

[Dennisusa]

Once you solder the coil in place, it won't be removable. Also, a soldered compression fitting wont be any more sanitary than a threaded one. They do make 1/2" triclamps that could be welded to the coil and kettle. I think your best bet is to become good buddies with a good tig welder.

Yeah, I was afraid someone was going to say the soldered socket-weld elbow would not work.

Do you have any thoughts on soldering tube into npt triclovers? Maybe I need to ping the folks at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/soldering-stainless-steel-155782/

 

[bdjohns1]

Yeah, I was afraid someone was going to say the soldered socket-weld elbow would not work.

Do you have any thoughts on soldering tube into npt triclovers? Maybe I need to ping the folks at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/soldering-stainless-steel-155782/

That would be a good idea. I found that thread to be very valuable as I was figuring out how to go tri-clamp at a reasonable cost.

Considering that a lot of us are soldering a tank ferrule into our kettles with just a dimple/ flare to increase solder area, I'd think that the bored-out cap would be sufficiently strong. At the center, the end caps are the full thickness of the cap - typically 1/4". That should be ample area.

As a general rule, I've never seen a sanitary process vessel which had any kind of internal fittings aside from a sprayball. A truly sanitary HERMS coil would need to exit the side of the vessel via a flared (to the outside) hole, soldered inside, and the solder bead worked so that it smoothly transitioned over a radius from the tube to the kettle. For a 1/2" tube, a 1/8" radius on the bead wold probably be suitable.

 

[klyph]

Yeah even if you mount the coil with sanitary fittings, the outside of the triclamps that will be submerged are not sanitary. Honestly, your just as well off with compression or flare fittings, I went with flare as they hold up better to repeated removal.

 

[bdjohns1]

I'll recommend the idea that I'm actually doing - run the HERMS coil out the top of your HLT, and make a cutout notch somewhere around the perimeter to feed through. Then, drill out a hole in a tri-clamp end cap and solder/braze/weld to the end of the tube.

That way, you don't have any fittings inside the tank, your product contact surfaces don't interact with threads or compression fittings, and your HERMS coil is removable from the tank.

Going through the wall with a sanitary fitting is difficult at best. The one thing I am trying is a dip tube for my brew kettle. For that, I'm using the dip tube for a Sankey keg false bottom backwards (so the short arm is going through the tank wall). The short arm is soldered to a sanitary gasket orifice plate (bored out to the tube's OD). Here's what an orifice plate gasket looks like:

http://www.newmangasket.com/orificeplategaskts.htm
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J10VKU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Then, before I put on the ball valve and tri-clamp outside the brew kettle, I feed the pickup tube in through the ferrule and rotate so that the pickup tube is near the bottom and against the wall. With that, I can whirlpool or use some kind of other hop/trub filter to protect my plate chiller and get a clean transfer to my fermenter.

The orifice-plate mount should work for any kind of fitting that can be passed entirely through a tank ferrule. It might even be a relatively cheap option for mounting a heating element - it would be cheap/easy to bore a hole through 1/16" sheet stainless and weld a NPS coupler onto the plate.

That would also allow you to use the rippled elements that don't work with the Brewers Hardware TC element adapter. You'd still need to provide a water-tight housing for the electrical connections. Unlike the other popular methods with installing a 1" locknut on the kettle, you can remove the element without having to unscrew anything. Assuming you seal it up right the first time, it should stay sealed.

I'll have to see if I can solder on a fitting without damaging the gasket material. The vendor from the link above (not Amazon) sells a variety where you can remove the plate from the gasket.

So, instead of using a weldless bulkhead for a thermowell, you could use an orifice plate, clamp, and a ferrule.

 

[Dennisusa]

I'll recommend the idea that I'm actually doing - run the HERMS coil out the top of your HLT, and make a cutout notch somewhere around the perimeter to feed through. Then, drill out a hole in a tri-clamp end cap and solder/braze/weld to the end of the tube.

That way, you don't have any fittings inside the tank, your product contact surfaces don't interact with threads or compression fittings, and your HERMS coil is removable from the tank.

Going through the wall with a sanitary fitting is difficult at best. The one thing I am trying is a dip tube for my brew kettle. For that, I'm using the dip tube for a Sankey keg false bottom backwards (so the short arm is going through the tank wall). The short arm is soldered to a sanitary gasket orifice plate (bored out to the tube's OD). Here's what an orifice plate gasket looks like:

http://www.newmangasket.com/orificeplategaskts.htm
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J10VKU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Then, before I put on the ball valve and tri-clamp outside the brew kettle, I feed the pickup tube in through the ferrule and rotate so that the pickup tube is near the bottom and against the wall. With that, I can whirlpool or use some kind of other hop/trub filter to protect my plate chiller and get a clean transfer to my fermenter.

The orifice-plate mount should work for any kind of fitting that can be passed entirely through a tank ferrule. It might even be a relatively cheap option for mounting a heating element - it would be cheap/easy to bore a hole through 1/16" sheet stainless and weld a NPS coupler onto the plate.

That would also allow you to use the rippled elements that don't work with the Brewers Hardware TC element adapter. You'd still need to provide a water-tight housing for the electrical connections. Unlike the other popular methods with installing a 1" locknut on the kettle, you can remove the element without having to unscrew anything. Assuming you seal it up right the first time, it should stay sealed.

I'll have to see if I can solder on a fitting without damaging the gasket material. The vendor from the link above (not Amazon) sells a variety where you can remove the plate from the gasket.

So, instead of using a weldless bulkhead for a thermowell, you could use an orifice plate, clamp, and a ferrule.

You've got me seriously psyched now! First you tell me not to penetrate the HLT because of the issues, then promptly show me the best way to do it and how to avoid the issues - namely, with that awesome sanitary gasket orifice plate thingy you've invented. I love it and, yes, I think I might be going for penetration!

At this point my planned rig has NG burners, HTL with SS Herms coil, BK with hop stopper, 2 thermometers, 2 sight-glasses, no temp sensors or PID controls. In other words, really simple and easy to clean.

I'd like your opinion on a couple of things.... My reason for going "almost sanitary" is for simple CIP cleanup of the nasties hidden in fittings, joints and threads wherever they can't be reached (or seen). I'm even bothered by Chugger pump MPT threads and barbs for my silicone hose (to my CFC). But I'm strangely not bothered tri-clovers in keggles that are easily viewed and cleaned from above - especially those in the HLT which holds only water. Am I off from above base in this thinking?

I must also have underestimated the challenge of welding a sanitary fitting with two tri-clovers to a keggle - a beast, is it?

 

[bdjohns1]

At this point my planned rig has NG burners, HTL with SS Herms coil, BK with hop stopper, 2 thermometers, 2 sight-glasses, no temp sensors or PID controls. In other words, really simple and easy to clean.

I'd like your opinion on a couple of things.... My reason for going "almost sanitary" is for simple CIP cleanup of the nasties hidden in fittings, joints and threads wherever they can't be reached (or seen). I'm even bothered by Chugger pump MPT threads and barbs for my silicone hose (to my CFC). But I'm strangely not bothered tri-clovers in keggles that are easily viewed and cleaned from above - especially those in the HLT which holds only water. Am I off from above base in this thinking?

I must also have underestimated the challenge of welding a sanitary fitting with two tri-clovers to a keggle - a beast, is it?

I won't claim invention of the orifice plate idea (yet), if only because I haven't actually done a search to see if anyone else has done such a thing. I saw how Blichman does their quick disconnects for a pickup tube, and I could imagine someone from our corporate sanitation group glaring daggers at the screen.

I'm not actually welding myself for anything on my HLT/BK - just doing the dimple+silver solder method discussed in depth in the DIY forum. I've only done up the BK so far, but it seemed to go ok.

Normally, of course, welding up stainless steel properly is a TIG job. We've got a couple of guys at my plant who are qualified sanitary welders (ie, they can produce a demo weld that our quality guys say would meet 3A sanitary standards). If the silver solder method weren't "good enough", I'd be making arrangements with one of those guys to do my ferrules.

Strictly in a HLT that's only dealing in water, I wouldn't sweat tri-clamp fittings too much. Just take the clamps off and clean them manually - maybe use a toothbrush and some PBW solution to scrub the threads out good.

You're not alone on where you're bothered. I don't like the threaded fittings on these pumps either, but until someone comes out with an economical option, we've just got to suck it up, I guess. I just won't show a picture of my brew rig to any of my sanitation people, since they'd likely call me a f---ing hypocrite.

A note to March or Chugger - want to make us anal-retentive types soil ourselves? Offer up a pump with a 1" TC inlet/outlet for no more than $20 over the price of the current stainless heads (that gives you the wholesale price of tank ferrules at ~$4/each and $12 for doing those instead of NPT)

 

[Windsors]

A note to March or Chugger - want to make us anal-retentive types soil ourselves? Offer up a pump with a 1" TC inlet/outlet for no more than $20 over the price of the current stainless heads (that gives you the wholesale price of tank ferrules at ~$4/each and $12 for doing those instead of NPT)

I guess I am in that camp...so I took it to a local TIG welder with some 1-1/2" TC ends and he came up with a sanitary pump head.

 

[mattd2]

Just a question I always ask myself on sanitary systems, what are you doing valving-wise? AFAIK Ball valves are inherantly not sanitary because when going between open/closed the let fluid in behind the ball. I guess you can cover this with the CIP regime to work the valves during cleaning but just thought I'd throw the info out there.

 

[Windsors]

I agree about the ball valves. I use diaphragm valves, sampling valves with TC on both ends and a 4 way sanitary valve. I know anything on the pre-boil side is not as important, but I wanted CIP as much as possible and have everything come clean. Here are some photos:

 

[bdjohns1]

Yep, diaphragm valves would be the most sanitary "affordable" option out there. Butterfly valves are sanitary, but hard to control flow accurately with them. At work, we typically control flow by putting our 3-phase motors on variable frequency drives. The other option is pneumatically actuated control valves like these: http://www.gowcb.com/products/valves/pneumtic.asp - we normally use those for on-off flow to control product routing, but some are suitable for throttling flow precisely.

At my plant, we actually have hundreds of the W75 series valves to allow us ridiculous amounts of flexibility in routing product from anywhere to anywhere else.

Ball valves are probably a low risk in the way we use them in homebrewing - they just can't be effectively CIP'd.

 

[Dennisusa]

I'd like to go back to one of my original question..... How "unsanitary" would a socket-weld 90 elbow be if it were soldered rather than Tig-welded? When some of the engineers on this thread respond, please remember that I'm not in search of 3A TC perfection as my rig is for home-brewing only. My primary goal is ease of cleanup using CIP for nasties that hide out of sight and out of reach. So ... if I were to sweat a socket-weld elbow on tubing (I believe the tube ID mates pretty well with the ID of the fitting) just how bad would this connection be? Pics of two 1/2" socket welds below (first is pipe fitting, the second is tube fitting) Thanks guys

 

[klyph]

Sanitary fittings make a sweep instead of a sharp 90. I really don't see the point in making an "almost sanitary" fitting, it either is or it isn't. I have sweated 90s and flare fittings on my herms coil, but I know it's not sanitary.

 

[Tony3696]

Considering that a lot of us are soldering a tank ferrule into our kettles with just a dimple/ flare to increase solder area, I'd think that the bored-out cap would be sufficiently strong. At the center, the end caps are the full thickness of the cap - typically 1/4". That should be ample area.

At my last job we used sanitary end caps that were drilled and brazed like that and pressured them up to 65 psi with no problem. We also had a couple that we used to burst test disposable plastic filter housings up to 200 psi (we built them in a pinch). For those we drilled & tapped the end cap, then brazed both sides. With some polishing they were as sanitary as the purpose built ones.

 

[bdjohns1]

Sanitary fittings make a sweep instead of a sharp 90. I really don't see the point in making an "almost sanitary" fitting, it either is or it isn't. I have sweated 90s and flare fittings on my herms coil, but I know it's not sanitary.

That's partly to allow clearance for the clamp fittings on the end, at least when you get to smaller diameters. You can cap off a tee, and the general rule is that if the dead leg is less than 1 pipe diameter, you can still CIP effectively. A 90 can still meet sanitary design if there's some radius to the inner part, not just a squared off corner.

 

[Dennisusa]

Could someone give me some very basic knowledge on how a tig welder gets a sanitary ferrule into a keggle (with tri-clovers both inside and outside the keg)? If we start with a sanitary ferrule with its triclover end inside the keggle, do we then push it through a drilled hole and buttweld a second ferrule to the part sticking through to the outside? Is the welded fitting then drilled out to get a smooth sanitary interior? Earlier in this thread it was suggested to simply drill out a triclover end cap and tig that onto the ferrule - would this really result in a truly sanitary triclover joint? Would it be another option to rather get some thick-walled tubing instead of a ferrule and make the entire fitting from scratch?

Finally, as I am leaning in favor of a hard-plumbed all tri-clover setup, does it make the most sense to go with drilled out triclover end caps tigged on everywhere? I guess I need to see what one of those finished triclovers look like, but it is hard to imagine a smooth end.

Thanks in advance for your patience.

 

[aangel]

I agree about the ball valves. I use diaphragm valves, sampling valves with TC on both ends and a 4 way sanitary valve. I know anything on the pre-boil side is not as important, but I wanted CIP as much as possible and have everything come clean. Here are some photos:

Hey Windsors, I know the thread is a year old but can you elaborate a bit on those diaphragm valves? I'm trying to figure out if they're appropriate for on/off flow control in brewing. I've read somewhere that solenoid/diaphragm valves don't create enough of a seal to resist the forces thrown by march/chugger brewery pumps much less the 60psi CIP pumps.

For that matter, care to share your brew rig? I've never seen a 4 way valve setup and your pictures are very interesting.