Saison Recipe - Trying to zero in on target specs

[DisraeliEers]

I'm looking to make a saison that's light-bodied and refreshing that's highlighted with peppery, lemony, spice from the yeast, spicy noble hop flavor that also has some stonefruit and tropical notes (especially in the aroma).

I'd like to have some hop flavor but still distant from being a Belgian IPA. Am I close?

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.008? (not sure, first time using 3711)
IBUs: 29
ABV: 6.0%
Color: 4.9 SRM

63.4% Castle Pils
15.8% White Wheat
9.9% Vienna
2.0% Caramunich
1.0% Acidulated Malt
7.9% Corn Sugar

0.75oz (25.4 BUs) Sorachi Ace @ 60min
1.00oz (3.8 BUs) Saaz @ 10 min
0.50oz Nelson Sauvin dry hopped

Mash: 75 mins @ 152F
Wyeast 7311 @ 72F, with daily ramping up to > 80F

Ca: 50
Mg: 5
Na: 5
SO4: 94
Cl: 42
Mash pH: 5.36

 

[m00ps]

id take out the caramunich. mash lower, I do mine at 148 to get it very dry. FG should be able to get down to 1.005 or less if you do it right. I use various blends of saison yeasts, but the last 4 ive done have got to 1.000, 0.998, 1.002, and 1.001

You could stand to up the hop amount and it still wont be anywhere close to an IPA. My standard for doing a single hop saison is:
- small bittering charge of something
- 1 oz @10min
- 2 oz @0min
- 1 oz dry hop, sometimes this goes in at 0min

 

[m00ps]

also, 3711 is not very peppery. Its all lemon zip IME. I love it, but its one of the less complex saison yeasts out there. Thats why I love blending it with stuff. Food for thought that may help you dial in this lemon, pepper character you are going for

 

[Oceantendency]

Nelson goes nicely for aroma with Saisons ( musty yet clean and almost Chardonnay aroma), but the taste and aroma you are going for, not sure if that combo is suited for each other in the style or accomplished, you don't need that much corn sugar to get to the dryness, which will come from your yeast, mashing lower, and from your FG. won't sorachi give you more lemony dill kick

 

[max384]

I concur with dropping the mash temps. I also mash my saisons at 148 F.

I'd also decrease the amount of wheat malt to 10% or less. I guess this is personal preference, but I don't like a high wheat bill in saisons.

If you're keeping the temps high enough, the saison yeast will dry it out plenty, so I'd probably skip the corn sugar myself.

 

[DisraeliEers]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I think I've decided to go with the following recipe. It seems I'll be missing out on the peppery notes, but that's fine. As long as I still get that saison ester flavor and dryness, I'll be pleased. I'm a bit concerned about making a lemon bomb, but that actually doesn't sound unpleasant.

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.008? (not sure, first time using 3711)
IBUs: 39
ABV: 5.9+
Color: 5 SRM


69.4% Castle Pils
16.3% White Wheat
12.2% Vienna
2.0% Caramunich
(in lieu of acid malt, I'm just using 88% lactic acid for the pH adjustment to 5.36 per Bru'nwater)

0.75oz (25.9 BUs) Sorachi Ace @ 60 min
1.00oz (12.5 BUs) Sorachi Ace @ 10 min
1.00oz Sorachi Ace @ flameout
0.5oz Nelson Sauvin dry hopped

Mash 75 minutes @ 148F
Wyeast 3711

 

[hopbrad]

Brooklyn Brewery Sorachi Ace is a saison with sorachi ace, i think its great. i also love nelson sauvin in them, ive never done both. so i would love to heard the outcome if you remember to update.

i have a saison going now that i used styrian goldings and want to dry hop with nelson. i usually dont combo the traditional hops with new world/citrusy hops.

I think your FG will go a bit lower especially if you mash lower. closer to 1.000-1.004

 

[tagz]

Based on your description, I think that recipe should work. In the original recipe, the Nelson would have drown out the noble hop character. Soriachi has a fighting chance. Not a big fan of soroachi myself, but if you like it, the recipe should work.

 

[m00ps]

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.008? (not sure, first time using 3711)

Haha, clearly

I'd be willing to bet money thatll get down to 1.005 at the very highest. If you dont want the abv to creep over 7% or something, i might adjust your OG target
Last 2 blends I did with 3711 got down to 1.000 and one a bit below, both made it past 8% unintentionally

 

[Jonkl]

Yeah, 3711 will finish pretty low. It's a beast.

Pacific Jade supposedly has a lemon/pepper sort of character, if you want to try that. In fact, I may have to try a PJ/Nelson saison in the future. That sounds like a decent combo.

 

[flars]

I get the best spice notes from WY 3711 holding the fermentation temperature at the bottom of the yeasts range.