Saison recipe opinion

[Kmcogar]

Saison

Batch size 5 gallons
Boil size 6.1 gallons
Boil time 60 minutes
Grain weight 11.5 pounds
Efficiency 75%
Original gravity 1.065
Final gravity 1.018
Alcohol (by volume) 6.1%
Bitterness (IBU) 35
Color (SRM) 8.2°L
Grains/Extracts/Sugars
11.5 pounds

Pale Ale 38ppg, 3°L 9 pounds
78.3%

Aromatic 36ppg, 1.5°L 1.5 pounds
13.0%
Wheat 38ppg, 2°L 0.5 pounds
4.3%
Crystal 60L 34ppg, 60°L 0.5 pounds
4.3%

Hops
2.15 ounces
MotuekA hops
7.2%, Pellet 1.5 ounces
Apollo hops
18%, Pellet 0.65 ounces

Mash
60 minutes, 8.1 gallons
Strike
Target 152°F 4.3 gallons
163°F
60 minutes (+0)
Sparge
Target 170°F 3.8 gallons
180°F

Boil
60 minutes, 6.1 gallons

Apollo hops
18%, Pellet 0.25 ounces
60 minutes (+0)

Moteka hops
7.2%, Pellet 1 ounce
20 minutes (+40)

Apollo hops
18%, Pellet 0.15 ounces
20 minutes (+40)

MotuekA hops
7.2%, Pellet 0.5 ounces
5 minutes (+55)

Apollo hops
18%, Pellet 0.25 ounces
1 minutes (+59)


My real question is....what do you think of the hop times? I have these hops to work with so please don't recommend different hops....... Well my buddy has them. I've never used either of them. But I read saison are pretty forgiving.

 

[Nateo]

Where's the yeast? Saisons are all about the yeast. The recipe is just a canvas on which the yeast can work.

 

[Kmcogar]

French saison 3711. My apologies

 

[JimTheHick]

Im considering motueka in a saison. Warrior or simcoe for bittering. I think it sounds Gooood. I've had good results with motueka at 10 and 20'

 

[urbanmyth]

That is not nearly dry enough for a saison. They should finish up around 1.007 or so. Maybe try and replace some of the base malt with table sugar. Also remember the saison yeast likes it hot. I think Jamil ferments his up in the 80s.

 

[kingwood-kid]

3711 will get it dry. It will do so at room temps, but in the 80s won't hurt. High temps are mainly for the Dupont strain. In the interest of dryness, I would leave out the caramel malt. You can use biscuit or sub out some base malt for munich if you want more color.

Nobody addressed the hops, which were supposed to be the main question. I think the flavors will go with the yeast very nicely, and the times look fine.

 

[Nateo]

3711 = 60*. You can ramp up later for attenuation, but it doesn't like it hot. I wouldn't ferment it over 70*. It really depends on your desired beer profile, whether to leave the crystal in or take it out. 3711 will get it pretty dry on its own. If you don't want it dry, leave it in.

May not be "to style" but I'm pretty sure the farmers who invented the style would laugh at you if you tried to tell them what goes in and what doesn't.

I'm brewing a saison on Wednesday with 3711 and Nelson Sauvin, so I obviously think the NZ hops are a good choice.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

Your IBUs are higher than I like in a saison... Especially if it's bone dry. Also you really need to be using pilsner malt, preferably a European pilsner.

 

[DannPM]

That's a lot of aromatic malt. Have you ever used it in that quantity before?

I highly suggest adding an additional strain, 3711 won't add much character against that robust of a malt bill.

 

[Kmcogar]

I was thinking about dropping the aromatic malt to 1lb. I'm kinda working with ingredients I already have. I heard saison was pretty forgiving so I though I would give it a try. I agree with it being a little too hoppy. I might try to hop it down a bit. I might also add some sugar. Thanks for the suggestions folks!

 

[frankstoneline]

I was thinking about dropping the aromatic malt to 1lb. I'm kinda working with ingredients I already have. I heard saison was pretty forgiving so I though I would give it a try. I agree with it being a little too hoppy. I might try to hop it down a bit. I might also add some sugar. Thanks for the suggestions folks!

cut the aromatic by a pound, supplement with ~1 pound of turbinado. 3711 should be alright, if you can heat it up I'd suggest it.
As far as hops go, it's certainly quite hoppy for the style (though I've had hoppy saisons), I tend to find that I dont get the yeast character I'm looking for with such a robust hop profile, so if I was brewing it I'd tune the hops way back (I like a touch of late saaz flavor and a bit of bitterness and thats about it). Realistically, the hop issue is based on personal taste and if you're into hops, give er a shot.

 

[Bashiba]

I have used 3711 a bunch of times, in fact I have 10 gallons fermenting with it right now and am doing 10 gallons of Rye Saison with it and some brett in a couple weeks, it works great at mid 60's, it doesn't need to be heated up like 3724 does.

Apollo is pretty pungent, I would only use enough as a First Wort Hop addition to get the IBU's to your desired level and would stay away from using it late if it were me. Then add some Motueka, which I think sounds great, at the end for a touch of flavor and aroma.

Also I would add some form of simple sugar to dry it out, whether table sugar, invert, tubinado, anything like that should work. I personally use home made invert sugar in mine.

 

[Nateo]

I have used 3711 a bunch of times, in fact I have 10 gallons fermenting with it right now and am doing 10 gallons of Rye Saison with it and some brett in a couple weeks, it works great at mid 60's, it doesn't need to be heated up like 3724 does.

Getting Belgian yeast hot is probably the worst "common sense" advice floating around. Do pro Belgian brewers ferment in the high 70s? Yes, but their fermenter geometry and batch size reduces ester and fusel formation. On a home scale, it's not necessary or wise to ferment that hot. (3724 does tend to crap out before fully attenuating, and people have luck raising the temp, but since it's a red wine strain, I'd argue it's actually a pH issue, not a temp issue).

I've had certified judges ask for my Belgian recipes after they taste them, and I ferment them all at 60*. You'll get plenty of character, with much lower fusels. Ask a beer judge how much he loves getting a headache after a flight of hot-fermented Belgians.

 

[Kmcogar]

So, this might be a newbie question. But why does adding sugar dry it out?

 

[Kmcogar]

Oh, and how much sugar should I add?

 

[coypoo]

Sugar is completely fermentable. It's only drier if the sugar replaces some malt, if you add it on top then it may or may not be drier.

 

[coypoo]

Getting Belgian yeast hot is probably the worst "common sense" advice floating around. Do pro Belgian brewers ferment in the high 70s? Yes, but their fermenter geometry and batch size reduces ester and fusel formation. On a home scale, it's not necessary or wise to ferment that hot. (3724 does tend to crap out before fully attenuating, and people have luck raising the temp, but since it's a red wine strain, I'd argue it's actually a pH issue, not a temp issue).

I've had certified judges ask for my Belgian recipes after they taste them, and I ferment them all at 60*. You'll get plenty of character, with much lower fusels. Ask a beer judge how much he loves getting a headache after a flight of hot-fermented Belgians.

I think this is really good advice. I've noticed that I get more Belgian character (and a better beer) on my Belgian pale ale, and I think it is bc I ferment it cooler than I do my dubbels or tripels. I'll have to say though, that the beers do benefit from some extended bottle aging. Ok fresh, but not nearly as good as after 8 weeks

 

[Vovic]

So, this might be a newbie question. But why does adding sugar dry it out?

IMHO sugar will not dry it out. It will increase alcohol content. To make it more drier we need more yeast attenuation

 

[Nateo]

IMHO sugar will not dry it out. It will increase alcohol content. To make it more drier we need more yeast attenuation

Can you think of a situation where adding simple sugars doesn't increase attenuation? I've brewed a lot of beers with simple sugar, and they all have been more highly attenuative than my non-sugar-added beers.

 

[MrOH]

A few points.

I've used Motueka as a flavor and aroma addition in a saison and it is great.

A little goes a long way when it comes to aromatic malt.

Mash low and you won't need any simple sugar with 3711. You also don't need high fermentation temps with that strain either. Just mash at 148 for 90min or until an iodine test comes up negative, and it will ferment completely dry if given time.

 

[GaryJohn]

Wyest French Saison 3711
65-77F

Room temp is perfect for this one. No heating OR cooling required usually. My last batch was at 68-70F and it was perfect!

 

[JimTheHick]

A few points.

I've used Motueka as a flavor and aroma addition in a saison and it is great.

.

Say an ounce at 20' and an ounce at 5' for a 5 gallon batch? Thanks!