S-04 - Not liking this yeast

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jjones17

jjones17

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I made two batches with this yeast. One an ESB, and the other an english bitter and they both taste 'phenolic' or twangy. I thought this yeast had a pretty good reputation? I make AG batches, and my process is down pretty good. I used quality ingredients, and this taste has not shown up in any of my other batches. I fermented at about 65f (ambient) but do not have temperature controls.

Anyone else find this? I am thinking of writing this yeast off, thought I still have a packet and hate to waste :)
 
It's supposed to be estery, not phenolic. And it is in my experience. fruity notes and doesn't attenuate as well as California Ale or whatever, so you end up with more body.
 
I've used it a handful of times and I never got phenolic or twangy from it. My biggest gripe is that it is kind of one dimensional ester profile and doesn't have as much character as a number of the traditional Brit liquid strains.
 
I just did an IPA with it. I've only taken one sample in two weeks but I didn't remember being unhappy with the way it tasted. We'll see.
 
It always gives me fruitiness and a high FG (never phenolic), but that's been what I was looking for. Some of the older and more experienced brewers here seem to have strong and varied opinions about S-04. If it doesn't make beer you like, then just ditch it and maybe try Nottingham. YMMV.

Of course, if you still get that off-taste with a different yeast...
 
Try another strain then to see if it goes away, but I'd also be rechecking sanitizing and cleansing routines.
 
I don't mind it. I haven't had any problems with attenuation. I have been starting at 1050-1056 or so and finishing anywhere from 1006-1012. The 1012 that I finished probably would have finished lower but I was in a bit of a hurry. :D

I like it because it starts fast (within 6 hours) and finishes low.

Obviously, YMMV
 
i know the twang taste your talking about, but i don't think it's related to phenols. i think it's an ester or something else that this yeast throws out. i've made a few beers that turn out OK with it, but when i've used 1968 or 1028, i've been happier with the results.
 
Thanks for chiming in all, good to hear.

I hate to write this yeast off after only 2 tries, but this is not a good sign. With about 25 AG batches under the belt, these are the only 2 that came out with the off flavor profile. I have used a few yeasts, but finally found a LHBS an hour and a half away that carries liquid. I picked up wyeast 1728 (scottish) and the 1968 (London ESB).I will try doing an ESB using the 1968 to see if it will turn out better.
 
Based on a couple of ESB batches that I made with S-04, I'm not a huge fan either. I don't get "off" flavors from it, but I find it kind of dominates the flavor of the brew to the point that malt and hops become background flavors to the yeast. I'm not sure how I'd describe its flavor exactly, but it's something like a musty, earthy, tangy quality. I know that many here love the yeast so maybe it's me, but I'll have to try some other British yeasts to find out.
 
I tried S-04 a few months ago, and I'm not a fan either. I do find that my S04 beer is twangy - sort of edgy and acidic, and before it got twangy it was loaded with Diacetyl.

I've heard the Scottish is a good yeast. I'm going to try the 1338 European Ale for my new malty yeast. But I'm pretty sure those S04 yeast washes are going to languish.
 
i don't like it either, when i used it there was a strange 'something' to the beer I couldn't put my finger on, and a whole lot of diacetyl i could put my finger on. i don't like german hef yeasts and certain belgian yeasts either, theres nothing wrong with preferring clean fermenters :D.

ksbrain is right, wyeast scottish ale is a really good yeast for malty beers. ive used it in a lot of ales and loved it in all of them except the lager wanna-be blonde i made with it.
 
I used this S-04 to brew an ESB about 2 weeks ago. I've checked the gravity twice in the last three days and it appears to be stuck at 1.020. Is this a common FG for this yeast?
 
I've got a package sitting in my fridge but have yet to use it. Besides ESB, any suggestions on what type of beer it would be good with?
 
It's damn near my house yeast. I use it for everything non-Belgian. Barleywines, APAs, stouts, etc. I get great attenuation like US-05 but with a slightly fruitier character, better floccuation, and never had any off flavors. My only complaint is a little beer loss because of the brick it forms.
 
ksbrain said:
I tried S-04 a few months ago, and I'm not a fan either. I do find that my S04 beer is twangy - sort of edgy and acidic, and before it got twangy it was loaded with Diacetyl.
Click to expand...

Can't be, must be due to the malt extract.

Ever wonder why all these dry yeast users insist you have to age
your beer before it tastes good?

Ray
 
Used it in an ESB and a IPA. The ESB is cloudy and the IPA took 36+ hours to start. Both were very near the expiration date. I like Wyeast 1028 or 1968 better. The 04 is 1/3 the price though.
 
rayg said:
Can't be, must be due to the malt extract.

Ever wonder why all these dry yeast users insist you have to age
your beer before it tastes good?

Ray
Click to expand...

Well I don't use extract so it isn't that. I also don't get any twanginess with US05 right out of the packet.

But I have to say that the beer I made with second generation harvested S04 has none of the twanginess and not even really that much diacetyl. Though it has rye, which may be hiding some of that.
 
I'm heating my strike water for a mild right now and I was thinking of using my US-04 but this thread has me nervous because so many people don't like the yeast. Normally I would go ahead and do it but I have lots of company coming this summer and this beer will be served to a lot of people so I really need it to turn out good. I have a cake of notty that I could throw this beer on and I'm wondering if I should just do this to be safe and save my 04 for another day.
 
KUbrew said:
I'm heating my strike water for a mild right now and I was thinking of using my US-04 but this thread has me nervous because so many people don't like the yeast. Normally I would go ahead and do it but I have lots of company coming this summer and this beer will be served to a lot of people so I really need it to turn out good. I have a cake of notty that I could throw this beer on and I'm wondering if I should just do this to be safe and save my 04 for another day.
Click to expand...

I haven't had any probs with the s-04 yeast... I'd definitely use it for a mild.
 
KUbrew said:
I'm heating my strike water for a mild right now and I was thinking of using my US-04 but this thread has me nervous because so many people don't like the yeast. Normally I would go ahead and do it but I have lots of company coming this summer and this beer will be served to a lot of people so I really need it to turn out good. I have a cake of notty that I could throw this beer on and I'm wondering if I should just do this to be safe and save my 04 for another day.
Click to expand...

Ferment with it starting in the low 60's and let it ride from there up to 70

A diacetyl rest would be a good idea once it starts slowing down.
 
I made 8 gal of mild for my second all grain brew. I split it into two 4 gal batches, one got notty the other got S-04. Personally I liked the S-04 better. Lately I've used windsor on a bitter and a brown porter and they turned out pretty good, it's not nearly as fruity as S-04. The only thing i did with the windsor was mash around 149-150 so it wouldn't finish too high (1.013)
 
I used S-04 once in a bitter, and it came just like how the OP says. Tangy and nasty. I thought maybe my process was bad, as it was one of my first brews. However reading this makes me wonder.

I noticed some others have mentioned using Nottingham yeast instead. I've used Nottingham several times and I love it. Very clean fermenting yeast. Definitely a favorite of mine.
 
I love discussions of ale yeasts where doing a "diacetyl rest" comes up. The entirety of ale fermentation is a diacetyl rest.
 
I have used S-04 a number of times the past few months and have had no issues with off or twangy flavors. It does result in a fuller and sweeter tasting beer and I have consistently had final gravities in the .009 - .011 range. What I can see that might explain why I am not getting the esters or twang is that I ferment in a temperature controlled fermentation chamber carefully controlled by a thermostat that is taped against the fermentor. I ferment thru to no noticeable activity at 63 or 64 degrees, so for much of the fermentation the chamber itself is in the mid to upper 50's in order to keep the fermentor temp down to 63 degrees. This goes on for a week. In the second week when no visible signs of fermentation are present I raise the temp to 68 degrees to encourage the yeast to clean the beer up. At that point I do a gravity read/taste test. If all is good, I cold crash and keg it for a 3rd week, after which it is ready to drink. So far, I have had no issues and the beers have all had a similar and pleasant slightly sweet ale flavor profile with no odd flavors. My experience is that a lot of ale yeasts have a big line of demarcation in terms of the fermentionr temperature at which point esters, phenolics and other flavor compounds are produced and the difference is only a matter of one or two degrees. This is why I built a fermentation chamber and control the cooling via a thermostat touching the fermentor itself - so that can I keep the actual fermentation temp below 65 degrees (above which seems to be the formation point for these other flavors, imho) during the primary fermentation period.
 
babalu87 said:
Could you enlighten us?
Click to expand...

I think he's talking about how lagers do D-rests at ~60ish degrees tp get the yeast to clean up after themselves and ale yeasts being in the 60s to start (minus freaks like notting and pacman in the 50s) clean up diacetyl in their natural temps.
 
Jdecarol said:
I think he's talking about how lagers do D-rests at ~60ish degrees tp get the yeast to clean up after themselves and ale yeasts being in the 60s to start (minus freaks like notting and pacman in the 50s) clean up diacetyl in their natural temps.
Click to expand...

Many English strains need to be warmed up 4-6 degrees above what they fermented at to clean up after themselves.
 
I think Jdecarol is prolly correct about the d-rest idea originating with lager yeasts. However, I have read a lot of posts on this forum from highly experienced homebrewers who do a temp rise of a few degrees after primary fermentation activity subsides and those guys seem to report having less off flavor issues. I have thus incorporated this into my process and, likewise seem to have few flavor issues in my ales. Now, I did not do a side-by-side comparision to truly test out whether this rise really makes a difference in minimizing odd flavors. But, it was easy to incorporate this change into my process and I have subsequently experienced no esters, phenols or other odd flavors worth to speak of. So without getting into the science of whether or not ale yeasts really are doing anything different at 70 degrees v 65 degrees after primary fermentation subsides (of which I know next to nothing), my experience is that I have had no flavor issues with any ale yeast I have used when doing the temp rise method.
 
Just to further clarify my point:

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=22

Wyeast 1968 , one of my favorite English strains

This extremely flocculent yeast produces distinctly malty beers. Attenuation levels are typically less than most other yeast strains making for a slightly sweeter finish. Ales produced with this strain tend to be fairly fruity. Fruitiness will increase with higher fermentation temperatures (70-74F, 21-23C). Diacetyl production is noticeable and a thorough rest is necessary. Yeast traps trub easily and autolysis during storage is accelaerated. A very good cask conditioned ale strain due to rapid and complete flocculation. Brilliantly bright beers are easily achieved without any filtration.
Click to expand...
 
Update: my first time using this yeast. I bottle last night, it was 22 days after I pitched the yeast. Simcoe single hop IPA. Pitched the yeast at 78 and cooled to 70 over 24 hour period. Held at 70 for a week then rose temp to about 74 for another two weeks. Gravity went from 1.072 to 1.018. It tastes amazing and smells like tropical fruit! I would compare it to ranger IPA. I would recommend this yeast.
 
Fermenting at 68-70, I've gotten a noticeable mango taste from it, which goes really well with any of the grapefruit-flavored hops (Cascade in my case). I think it's great for IPAs, and as someone else here has already said, it's damn near my house yeast.

Only problem I've had with it is that my pale beers come out a bit cloudy, which is probably just lack of patience on my part.
 
Some interesting things said in this thread. I've only just tried this yeast. I have an 'out of style' English pale ale, and a smoky oatmeal stout fermenting with this yeast. I'm interested to see how they turn out, but tasting mighty nice half way through ferment :)
 
my only negative I have on this yeast is that it doesn't sediment out well... other than that it's worked well for me.
 
I've read that too... for me, at best it still has some chunky particles in a semi clear beer, IPA came out seriously cloudy... of course I don't mind my pale ales a bit cloudy for personal consumption
 

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