So I am looking to build a mini commercial electric brew system. I say commercial as in the style of commercial not for commercial production. My question is involving the mash tun. I have done a ton of research and I have found one brewery that doesn't use a rake system. Smaller craft brewery. Most breweries seem to use either a steam insulated system or non insulated but all seem to have a rake system. Why are there. Very few that use a recirc system. Is it just the size of the HLT that would be needed to keep up with them themo transfer or is there another reason. As I won't have a steam generator the steam jacket is a no go but could do and insulated mash tun with a rake system. I guess I'm just asking what are the reasons for most breweries going with a rake system and why not a recirc system.
Recirc or Rake System in mash tun
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microbusbrewery
Senior Member
Some things that apply in commercial brewing don't necessarily apply to homebrewing, usually due to scale. Mash rakes are primarily there for mixing the mash ensuring the grain and water are mixed well, there aren't any dough balls (dry in the middle), and to ensure a consistent temperature throughout the mash. On a homebrew scale, recirc is usually done through a HERMS or RIMS in order to maintain or raise mash temps. Steam-jacketed and direct-fired tuns are more common on commercial setups because they're more efficient given the amount of grain they're dealing with (much more thermal mass than on a homebrew scale). Sometimes they'll use the rakes while lautering but I believe this varies quite a bit from brewery to brewery. I did a pro-am with a local brewery and they ran them in the lauter tun, albeit very slowly, to help avoid channeling while sparging. They will recirc in the lauter tun but that's usually so they get clearer wort in the boil kettle.
One of the big reasons commercials use rakes is that the Tun is steam jacketed and temp is maintained or raised using the steam so in order to keep the temp consistent across the mash it is continually raked. Dough balls are avoided at mash in by spraying both liquor and grits together into the tun (from the same out let)> I've explained that badly and I can't remember the name of it for the life of me. But a properly setup pro system will never get dough balls.
BrewingChemist
Well-Known Member
Another reason for rakes is removing the spent grains. The rakes can help push them out, which is way nicer.
That works in "real" tuns with clean-out ports, but in years of observing various homebrew mash stirring rigs I've yet to see one that could assist in clean-out...
Cheers!
Cheers!
@day_trippr , Can you post any pictures you may have of Recirc Rake systems you may have seen and your feedback.
This is an old post, but your still active on BrewPi Remix. I want to build a Rake for my Ss brewtech MashTun
This is an old post, but your still active on BrewPi Remix. I want to build a Rake for my Ss brewtech MashTun
This should get you started:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/build-motorized-mash-mixer-debate.238301/
For more, Google 'site:homebrewtalk.com mash rake' then switch the scope to 'Images' and you'll see a lot of clear hits.
Also 'site:homebrewtalk.com mash stirrer' gets even more.
Don't forget at the bottom of threads you'll often find more threads to dig into. Happy hunting!
Cheers!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/build-motorized-mash-mixer-debate.238301/
For more, Google 'site:homebrewtalk.com mash rake' then switch the scope to 'Images' and you'll see a lot of clear hits.
Also 'site:homebrewtalk.com mash stirrer' gets even more.
Don't forget at the bottom of threads you'll often find more threads to dig into. Happy hunting!
Cheers!
I think for anything 3bbl or less, a rake simply isn't needed.
I believe those "rakes" are mainly to ensure the grain bed is thoroughly mixed and no dough balls. A good paddle or large french wisk and a little arm power is all you need.
Building a recirc is nothing more than a $10 fountain pump and some tubing.
I believe those "rakes" are mainly to ensure the grain bed is thoroughly mixed and no dough balls. A good paddle or large french wisk and a little arm power is all you need.
Building a recirc is nothing more than a $10 fountain pump and some tubing.
I use a Ss Brewtech RIMS, with a Blichmann Rip Tide pump, on a 30 gallon Mash Tun. It is good for a 1/2Bbl into the Unitank.
With my set up, and keeping precise Mash temperature, especially with non-husked fermentable grains, it is a pain in the AZZ, to keeping track of my manometer on the side of the Ss Brewtech MT, making sure the mash doesn't start to get stuck.
So I would have to say I totally disagree on "anything 3Bbl or less!
An automated Rake, is on my radar now. I have everything else, and a LOT of Gold medals to show for my system.
Let us see the Famous Well Know (and very smart Man at automation controls n BrewPi's) @day_trippr , has to say...
What is your set up, @odie ? I like a friendly argument. Free Speech is great, as long as you like my beer!
Well, as long as I was asked...I brew on a "1/3 barrel" herms rig and considering how easy and fairly efficient it has been I would say putting a rake system in an only modestly larger rig would be money, time and effort better spent elsewhere.
That said I will still enjoy seeing pictures when it's ready
Cheers!
Mash rakes are typically employed on much larger systems because they are usually heat maintained via a steam jacket and it's imperative to move the freshly heated mash away from the jacket to allow cooler mash to take its place.
Without that large surface area heat source, aggressively moving the mash around will probably cause faster heat loss despite the whole mash being more homogeneous in temperature.
What's your heat source? RIMS can mean a few things like direct fire, electric heated tube....etc.
Have you insulated your mash tun? I'm assuming it's a bare 30g kettle rather than their infusion tun.
Without that large surface area heat source, aggressively moving the mash around will probably cause faster heat loss despite the whole mash being more homogeneous in temperature.
What's your heat source? RIMS can mean a few things like direct fire, electric heated tube....etc.
Have you insulated your mash tun? I'm assuming it's a bare 30g kettle rather than their infusion tun.
Who are you talking to?
you
Bobby - I found that even on a small 30-40 gallon capacity mash tun that is very well insulated, there still is a significant difference in heat distribution. I pre-heat my MT that is double wall, very well factory insulated SsBrewtech tank, with about 10 degree water from the HLT, above my mash-in rest step. I then mash in, and then use the 220VAC RIMS (also Ss Brewtech), to recirculate to dial-in very precisely, the temperature of that rest. Even with a pre-warm up of the MT, there is about a 4-5 degree drop in temperature, when I start circulating, compared to what my thermowell is telling me. Transfer hoses are short, and I do realize there will be a heat loss exterior of the MT while the wort is circulating. Honestly, I was surprised at how much difference there is in a relatively small tank, until I got the RIMS setup a year ago. I was also super stoked at the improved quality of the beer now, just by precisely controlling the Mash temperature. My last American Lager with 30% rice, Rest at 146F, 90 minutes, really needed to be raked about 6 times during the rest.
This is what I am trying to automate. There is a HUGE difference, between guessing it is 146 (maybe 142 or 152??) when you want a super clean finished beer with no residual unfermented sugars. I would rather be weighing out my Hops, possibly catching a quick bite of lunch while watching the temperature, and switching on/off the RIMS as needed, instead of raking the grain.
As @day_trippr said, "would be money, time and effort better spent elsewhere.", I agree! But I honestly have everything a big brewery has (almost), on a smaller scale, and at this point, my "wish list", is practically nothing needed - Except a RAKE!
The other HUGE difference in quality of beer, is the precise control of your Fermentation. Once I put online the Raspberry Pi, BrewPi, 7 years ago, the quality took a big gain. I was using a Johnson control before that, and it was "ok" within 2 degrees, but now with the brewpi, it is fractions of a degree and setting the Profile to ramp up or down, over several days, really made my "guessing" go smoother, not having to keep reprogramming the 2 degree on/off cycle of the old controller.
lol! Ok then, if you really desire a rake as a new toy you should definitely go for it and be sure to create a thread for us to enjoy
Cheers!
Cheers!
Broken Crow
Ale's what cures 'ya
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Only dropping in here to second @day_trippr 's "create a thread" because I'm very interested, and add: Include pictures! Best of luck!
Well, the smaller systems (3bbl) that I have seen, I just can't see the value added for the cost and complexity of adding a rake.
Instead of using a rake to move the grain around the hot water, you use a pump to move the hot water around the grain.
A pump and hose is a lot cheaper and easier to set up than a heavy motor, supporting framework and big mixing blade.
A local brewery had a 3bbl brew in a basket set up. A good stirring with a large paddle as mash in and then just recirc pump was all that was needed to maintain fairly uniform mash temps. It's really not that much bigger than a 55gal barrel. Maybe twice the width. It's not really that big a deal to stick a long big azz paddle in and stir it a bit.
@odie , your missing an important point - Recirculation of wort, through a heat exchanger (RIMS), works great at maintaining uniform temperature profile. But there becomes a problem - The Mash can begin to stick, especially with adjunct cereal grains, and without raking, there now is a pump starving for liquid to move.... then the Mash starts to "drift" in temperature.
I have no experience in a double-jacketed Mash Tun, but as previously noted above by @Bobby_M , in very large MT's, you must get the grain away from the much warmer outside wall, so the whole mash becomes a uniform profile temperature.
My experience has shown me, that even with 100% brewer's malt, no adjuncts, beautiful grain crush n lots of husks, when I occasionally do a stir, my thermowell probe temp drops. This tells me, even in a very well insulated Tun, and recirculation with no stuck mash; You still need to occasionally stir the grain and use your steam jacket, or RIMS rig, to dial in precisely, the profile temp.
There is not much room for error, when your Beta and Alpha Amylase works best in only a 10 degree window - 146-156. Too high or too low, and you got a very noticeable difference in finished beer, especially noticeable in Lagers.
I always welcome anyone else's experience and knowledge, as I am never done learning!
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
In a Pro-level, three vessel brewhouse, rakes are usually used in the lauter tun to very slowly cut the grain bed if the lauter slows down. In the mash tun, an agitator is used to mix the mash.
For homebrew level, there is a company in Germany that does offer a Reuhrwerk (agitator) in different sizes. I believe this would accomplish what you want better than rakes. Brauhardware Ruehrwerke
For homebrew level, there is a company in Germany that does offer a Reuhrwerk (agitator) in different sizes. I believe this would accomplish what you want better than rakes. Brauhardware Ruehrwerke
