I only brew 5 gallon batches because of a few different reasons. Any reasons why not to consider using a March pump to transfer liquids between sparge tank, mash tun to boil kettle? I do a gravity brew so I think that alleviates the priming issue.
Reasons not to use an electric pump
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benbradford
Well-Known Member
pumps are great?
BudzAndSudz
Well-Known Member
Don't think that just having gravity feed will alleviate priming issues, there's way more to it than just having the pump downhill. My pump makes me grumpy at least once a brew day, but it still beats lifting the heavy pots over and over!
BudzAndSudz
Well-Known Member
Good point. I suppose it's worth mentioning that I also use a chugger pump. It definitely still has some priming issues, but it can shoot some wort like I never imagined so it's darn worth the money!
benbradford
Well-Known Member
I have a chugger and a march. Both have priming issues, but work well. The chugger is more powerful but screams bloody murder if there is any air in the chamber. I can't use it when I am near a boil to circulate because the bubbles fill the chamber and make it scream.
Just to throw it out there, Little Giant is another option. I have been very happy with mine (TE-3-MD). Maybe it's just my setup but I can't ever remember a priming issue.
The usual reason given for avoiding pumps is that they shear proteins. As do so many of us I use pumps all the time (including for recirculation in the mash tun). The beer still comes out pretty good and as there really isn't any alternative I guess I'll never know what 'unsheared' beer tastes like.
maida7
Well-Known Member
The only reason I could see for NOT using a pump is it's one more piece of equipment to purchase. Also one more thing to clean on brew day. Not that cleaning a pump is hard. I just shoot some water thru it with the hose.
For 5 gallon batches I don't think a pump is really needed unless you have a bad back or really want to avoid a gravity system. Once you go to 10+ gallon batches a pump is really handy. Lifting 10+ gallons of very hot liquid is not a good idea.
For 5 gallon batches I don't think a pump is really needed unless you have a bad back or really want to avoid a gravity system. Once you go to 10+ gallon batches a pump is really handy. Lifting 10+ gallons of very hot liquid is not a good idea.
nickelmcgee
Active Member
I use an air diaphragm pump with an air compressor. The thing rocks it out. I run a HERMS system and having a pump that can recirc wort through the HLT coil without issue is essential. It also doesn’t “shear” protein either. I think shearing protein is BS even for a centrifugal pump.
I bought a March pump. I mostly do 5 gallon batches and I rarely use it. Mainly because I don't want to bother cleaning it. While it's not that hard to clean, the time it takes is just added on to the end of my brew day.
BudzAndSudz
Well-Known Member
I would be completely flabbergasted if that was true. Can you please cite a source of some sort?
I don't think there's much doubt that shearing occurs but as you should be able to pick up from the tone of my post I question how much of problem that is. You can look it up as well as I can - check Practical Brewer, Handbook of Brewing, Narziß and books like that. Not saying you'll find it any any all or none of those three but you might and if not you probably will in the material referenced in those.
As a general question: How is a pump hard to clean? Capture hot water in a HLT, add PBW and pump to your empty kettle. Clean kettle and dump PBW. If you want to rinse, fill your kettle with water and recirculate through the pump.
Clean.
Every couple of brews you can take apart the pump head with four screws. There's way more gunk lurking in your ball valves then there is in a pump head.
Clean.
Every couple of brews you can take apart the pump head with four screws. There's way more gunk lurking in your ball valves then there is in a pump head.
maida7
Well-Known Member
I just blow some water from the hose thru the pump at the end of the brew day. No big deal.
OP
OP
jgaepi
Brewer In Need Of Guidance
My concerns were $ and then more tubing and maybe quick connect valves. Even with Midwest 20% for veterans seems like it would still be about $200 for everything.
My original thought was it would help suck additional liquid out of the mash grains and faster. I was already thinking of measuring batch sparge water for the mash using a 4 quart container. It would probably be more accurate than xferring water from the kettle to mash tun using a pump.
But I am just thinking that with 5 gallons it is just not worth it.
My original thought was it would help suck additional liquid out of the mash grains and faster. I was already thinking of measuring batch sparge water for the mash using a 4 quart container. It would probably be more accurate than xferring water from the kettle to mash tun using a pump.
But I am just thinking that with 5 gallons it is just not worth it.
Monster Mash
Well-Known Member
I have to agree that with 5 gallon batches you can get by without a pump. When you get to 10+ gallons it makes things easier.
maida7
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure you should not run any centrifugal pump dry, where are you getting that info from?
HDIr0n
Well-Known Member
I think it just depends on what direction you want to go with your brewery. I have a HERMS style setup, and can't use my HERMS coil without a pump. The same would be true with a RIMS setup. If you are more traditional then yeah you can probably do without.
-G
-G
Get a pump. I only brew 5 gallon batches and use my pump to recirculate the mash via RIMS. In regards to cleaning it, its not tough at all. At the end of mashing when all my wort is in the BK, I fill up my mash tun with hot tap water and recirculate it for a few minutes, drain and repeat. Done. About every 5 brews I will run Oxyclean through it.
EvilBrewer
Well-Known Member
Holy [expletive]! Midwest gives a 20% discount to veterans? That's great - and thank you for your service!
As for whether you'll *need* a pump, I brewed 5 gallon all grain batches without a pump for a couple of years and it was fine. There was some lifting of boiling liquids which I didn't particularly care for...but I did it. That being said, I use a pump now and I'd never go back. My pump is mounted to my brewstand now but when I first got it, I did not have a brewstand....I screwed the pump to a block of wood and would place it on the ground (below the elevation of the banjo burner). Definitely a cheap yet effective solution.
I built my system to avoid the PITA pumps. I work with pumps for a living and having to prime and clean them does not make them easier or efficient. You can build your system to not use one. I have a batch sparge rig. Its set up with the hlt on the top shelf the mash tun on the middle shelf and the kettle on a lift table all have electric coils in them. Everything is gravity fed to each other. When the wort is ready to be transferred to the fermenters I just pump the lift table up with the kettle so I can gravity feed to my fermenters. Whats a nice bonus is the table is on wheels so I can roll the fermenters to my ferm freezer lift the fermenters to freezer height and just set them down into the ferm freezer. the lift tables can be had at harbor freight for less than 150 bucks, so price is comparable to march pumps. This was not meant to dis pump fans, just trying to give other options that are less complicated than using a pump.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/little-giant-vs-march-pumps-268504/
This thread goes into the run dry claim from LG (I know it is from Walter at March but still has some info).
Might ask walter to run a test to see how long you can run a March dry without killing it
Sorry, this makes me chuckle. Where in the world did you come up with this conclusion? I mean ok sure it's going to destroy hot trub - great that's insoluble protein and we don't want it anyway. But I've never heard of a pump impacting soluble protein.
As to OP's question: no reason you shouldn't use a pump of some sort. Someone made a comment about them extending brew day to clean - but they save time moving liquid so I'd argue there is an offset. Also you have a lot more versatility with a pump. And if you're worried about a little extra cleaning - maybe brewing isn't for you.
I've never had the priming issues with my March that everyone talks about. I have a valve on the outlet of the pump to help prime it. That said I wouldn't ignore the alternatives like Little Giant or Chugger.
I heard they also split atoms and that can lead to hot side fission.
When you recover your breath go educate yourself as I suggested in an earlier post. Do a search search on 'pump protein shear' on Yahoo or Google. There you will find articles that explain the basic phenomenon of which brewers, but apparently not all brewers, are aware. Now add the word 'beer' at the end to focus on brewing related aspects. At http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue6.6/depiro.html you will find an article by George dePiro (ironically at the Albany Pump House if he is still there):
"The shear forces produced when pumping wort are also a concern to the RIMS brewer. Proteins (like enzymes) may be denatured more rapidly when subjected to shear forces. When shear forces are excessive, beta-glucans can form a gel that can inhibit filtration of the finished beer."
It's interesting to note that George used to be in the pharmaceutical industry where this is of particular concern WRT enzymes so he would be especially sensitive to this. In brewing the enzymes are of course also involved and it is probably those proteins that are most sensitive.
Then, again as I suggested earlier, you might look in some brewing texts. Kunze, for example, has several paragraphs on this in Section 3.2.4.1. If you do take the trouble to read this you will see that shear also stretches ß-glucans promoting gel formation so this would be another disadvantage to using pumps (and as you saw above dePiro mentions that too).
So these are some of the places in the world from which I drew this conclusion. The fact that you have never heard of a phenomenon WRT brewing does not mean that it is not relevant to brewing. Brewing is such a complex process that one takes a big risk when expressing doubt about an unfamiliar proposition because brewing always has a surprise in store for him. That's one of the neat things about it.
Note that it is not only pumps that produce sheer. Anyplace where a fluid is exposed to a velocity gradient there will be shear. Pumps are an obvious place but remember that velocity is a vector. A fluid running through a pipe at constant flow rate (gallons per minute) is subject to shear at every bend in the pipe. Mash being stirred is subject to shear forces.
Some types of pumps subject the fluid to more shear than others. The piece at www.psgdover.com/assets/case-study_Mouvex_Surly_Sept12.pdf is a 'newsletter' article by a pump manufacturer bragging about its low shear pump and the selection of that pump by Surly brewing.
Ok - so I understand your point now great. And I will go study my Kunze book - yes - I do have it. But I just got back from VLB and apparently pump shear is not a big concern because not once
did it ever get brought up. I guess my point is - it's not a great reason to not use a pump.
did it ever get brought up. I guess my point is - it's not a great reason to not use a pump.
So my problem with this being added the conversation about pumps is that it isn't factually specific data that may be actually relevant to the homebrewer. I'm not suggesting that it can't be true, just that without homebrew specific data, it's just theoretical effluvia that may just cloud the conversation.
"Pumps may be denatured more rapidly" and "When shear forces are excessive" doesn't tell the homebrewer anything.
When exactly are shear forces excessive for the homebrewer? Should we never stir so as to eliminate shear forces from our mash paddles? Should we design our systems so that there is a straight sloping pipe from one vessel to the other and eliminate anywhere there could be a bend? What is the data that shows actual cause-and-effect results of shearing on a homebrew scale?
I'm not questioning that this is a fact of science, I'm questioning that it is something the home brewer would ever really need to worry about. Much like all the hubbub over autolysis, some things that are applicable in a large commercial manufacturing operation shouldn't be a real concern for the homebrewer.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I'd love to learn more of how this is applicable on the homebrew scale.
Ok I went back and reviewed the section of the Kunze book. What it says (paraphrasing because believe me - Kunze is no easy read) is shear forces produced at higher temperatures by:
- Too fast-moving agitators
- High flow velocities or repeated changes of direction in the external boiler
- Vigorous swirling in the whirlpool
- Too narrow or varying pipework cross sections
- Centrifugal forces (as produced by pumps)
Can lead to an increase in viscosity of the wort which in turn can lead to problems with filtration.
A couple takeaway's from this as applicable to the homebrewer:
1) If you use an agitator (most of us don't), you don't want to create a vigorous whirl. You want to stir with something that has a large surface area (enough to mix the mash), but slowly.
2) You want to control flow during whirlpool to limit shear force.
3) You need to think about your plumbing and making sure you are tapering if necessary and or use a consistent size throughout your plumbing. And use a large enough hose as well.
What Kunze does say is basically, use a high quality malt because in the brewhouse - we can only limit and not eliminate shear forces (practically speaking).
As all this relates back to the OP: I think there are bigger concerns than this. That's my take.
Speaking of the whole plumbing thing: that is a hugely important point AND one that does impact priming on the March Pumps. Use the biggest diameter you can practically use. Many use 1/2" - I think that is part of the problem. I use personally use 5/8" ID and have less of an issue. The last thing you want is restriction in your flow.
These are things that commercial brewers worry about more than home brewers but home brewers should be cognizant of them. My goal in home brewing is to make beers better than the ones I can buy. In order to do that I try to arrange things so that I don't experience the negative effects of autolysis (and I tasted plenty of home brew that suffers from it) or shear. Now I do use pumps - there really isn't much alternative but I try to use them as little as possible (which isn't nearly as little as I'd like).
As the DePiro article says, this is of particular concern to RIMS brewers because the wort is in constant motion and thus subject to lots more shear than in a conventional stirred mash. This would tend to cause me not to chose the RIMS approach.
I'll remind you that the main effect of shear according to Kunze is problems with filtration and that's it. Many of us don't filter so it doesn't even matter. So I wouldn't go abandoning RIMS so quickly.
FWIW - I'm a RIMS brewer and my beers clear up remarkably well.
Filtering is the devil anyway!
FWIW - I'm a RIMS brewer and my beers clear up remarkably well.
Filtering is the devil anyway!
I think he's probably referring to lauter/sparge filtration. That's where ß-glucans are a PITA. Don't know about whether they carry through all the way to the finished beer but I don't think they do. I think they get trapped in the grain bed during sparge. I don't filter either but I do get a lot of stuck mashes (and I do recirculate with a pump).
But that's a separate problem. The protein degradation issue is equally real. Much of the literature seems to focus on enzymes but I'm wondering if the effects on body proteins are appreciable.
But that's a separate problem. The protein degradation issue is equally real. Much of the literature seems to focus on enzymes but I'm wondering if the effects on body proteins are appreciable.
So to summarize this great back and forth debate about the finer points of a textbook:
If you use a pump your beer might be some arbitrary unknown degree harder to filter if you decide to filter it. If you use a RIMS, your wort will appear to be more filtered entering the kettle, however it will also be some arbitrary unknown degree harder to filter if you decide to filter it.
If you use a pump your beer might be some arbitrary unknown degree harder to filter if you decide to filter it. If you use a RIMS, your wort will appear to be more filtered entering the kettle, however it will also be some arbitrary unknown degree harder to filter if you decide to filter it.
A better summary would be:
Proteins, in particular enzymes, yeast, and ß - glucans can be effected by shear. This can result in difficult lauter/sparge (and possibly further problems if the finished beer is filtered), poorer enzyme performance and reduced head formation potential. Brewers should, where possible, take steps to reduce shear in handling wort. Larger rather than smaller tubing/piping should be selected and sharp bends eliminated where possible. Stirring should be as gentle as possible and low shear pumps should be selected if possible.
Proteins, in particular enzymes, yeast, and ß - glucans can be effected by shear. This can result in difficult lauter/sparge (and possibly further problems if the finished beer is filtered), poorer enzyme performance and reduced head formation potential. Brewers should, where possible, take steps to reduce shear in handling wort. Larger rather than smaller tubing/piping should be selected and sharp bends eliminated where possible. Stirring should be as gentle as possible and low shear pumps should be selected if possible.
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