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Clint Yeastwood

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I stuck my Rapt Pill in a keg of stout so I could watch the fermentation. It sent data right after I put it in. Now there is no wifi signal. The Pill was charged when I put it in, and I stand right next to the fermenter, so range isn't the problem.

Any idea what's happening? Isn't this thing supposed to put out a signal all the time?
 
Well this is amazing. I spent a very long time setting this thing up and Googling, and of course I read the poorly-written documentation. I wondered why there was no app. Then today I saw a brewing site telling people about the app.

I downloaded the app, and when I turned it on, it appeared to be the same thing as the captive app that goes on when you use wifi. Looks like there was no point.

I have no idea what a captive app is or why Kegland can't create a normal app like everyone else. I have THREE Inkbird apps. Normal apps, that is.

I suspect this device will turn out to be a waste of money. I read that it would work fine with metal fermenters, but there is no signal of any kind coming from it now. I just wanted to know when fermentation was done, but I am going to have to take samples just like I did with every other beer.

Hope beer isn't getting into it. There was no leakage when I calibrated it. I like to think I'm smart enough to screw the cap on correctly, but I have been known to make mistakes.
 
Are you trying to connect directly to the RaptPill's captive portal that you use for it's setup? You have to go through it's cloud portal to get to it for when it's in the FV.

Though maybe I'm out of date, I did see something that said they might be doing something to allow direct connections. But the cloud portal works well enough for me. You have to have copied some info from your captive portal session to use the cloud though.
 
I was able to connect to this thing when it was could not communicate with my wireless network. How it works, I can't even guess.

Is it possible for any wireless device inside a steel fridge and stainless fermenter to hook up to a network? I think I would have to put my router beside the fridge.

Correction: looks like I accidentally selected and deleted some text here. Sorry about that. I think I probably wrote, "I was able to connect to this thing when it was in the fermenter and could not communicate with my wireless network."
 
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If it's in a metal FV and inside a metal refrigerator, then you might have too much signal loss. Moving the wifi closer should help.

I did some signal strength tests in my house and found that when my Rapt pill was in a SS stock pot it had a loss of about -80 db when in the room I keep my FV's currently. But it was able to get out a report most of the time.

My FV's are plastic and I don't have them in a refrigerator or other FV cabinet. They have a more normal signal loss of -60 db, IIRC, when in that room that is 2 walls and over 50 feet away.

The default reporting interval is 1 hour, IIRC. Unless you changed that in setup.
 
I don't understand why this thing would shut down its wifi signal. Even if it can't connect to the network, that signal ought to be up.
 
Transmitting takes power. While listening doesn't take much at all, sleeping gives the best power savings. That's why at the default reporting interval they can claim 5 years between battery charging.
 
If you didn't get the information to allow the cloud portal to identify it, then you might be SOL for doing anything but wait till next time. And I'd recommend the next time be a test setup in your FV filled with water.

Maybe send a email to them and see what they say what you should try. They've answered some of my questions. It takes a few days though.
 
I did all the cloud stuff, but because it no longer communicates with my network, nothing is happening. It sounds like there is no way to communicate with the Pill unless I'm standing next to the fridge when the Pill decides to turn wifi on.

I wonder if a network extender by the fridge would get it going.
 
If you had it all set up, then a wifi endpoint or other wifi extender might be all you need. If you can move the wifi closer just to test, that might show you something.

I have my house wired with ethernet. If you do too, then it should be no issue to put a wifi endpoint connected to a ethernet cable inside the refrigerator next to the FV.
 
I was able to connect to this thing when it was could not communicate with my wireless network. How it works, I can't even guess.

Is it possible for any wireless device inside a steel fridge and stainless fermenter to hook up to a network? I think I would have to put my router beside the fridge.
The pill sleeps for approximately 59 minutes 30 seconds (default) then wakes up, transmits data via your wifi to the web portal, then goes back to sleep. I know of no way to capture data directly unless it's in setup mode. Once it's in your fermenter (and out of setup mode) you can only access reporting results via the web portal.

It's not surprising you are not seeing any data if you're fermenting in a ss fermenter inside a metal fridge, even if you were to put your router right next to the fridge. I sometimes ferment in a corny keg mere inches away from my router and only about half the readings make it to the portal. Now add in your fridge and it's easy to see why it's not able to communicate with your wifi. One solution *might* be to get a Rapt temperature controller and and place it outside your fridge and connect the two devices via a bluetooth connection. The pill will sent data to the controller via bluetooth and then the controller will relay the data via wifi to the portal.
 
Can you please confirm that you have followed the instructions exactly as described in this instruction sheet:
https://www.kegland.com.au/cdn/shop..._Quick_Start_Guide.pdf?v=13612129290691219114
Also if you have not resisted the device can you please confirm this has been done correctly.

If you have followed the instructions for the pill hydrometer already and still having issues then please send me your MAC address and we can look into the back end and check if it's setup correctly.
 
Can you please confirm that you have followed the instructions exactly as described in this instruction sheet:
https://www.kegland.com.au/cdn/shop..._Quick_Start_Guide.pdf?v=13612129290691219114
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for chiming in. I followed them as well as I understood them. I think you need native English speakers with writing experience. The website is confusing, too. For example, we are told to click "Next," when that word does not appear on the site. I finally realized the manual was referring to a little arrow.
Also if you have not resisted the device can you please confirm this has been done correctly.

I think you mean "registered. If that is the case, yes, I registered it. It worked fine until I walked away from the fridge and returned.
If you have followed the instructions for the pill hydrometer already and still having issues then please send me your MAC address and we can look into the back end and check if it's setup correctly.
I appreciate the help. It's 90-38-0c-12-88-94.

Is the cloud the only way to contact the Pill? From what people are telling me, once it's in the fermenter, I have to wait for it to send periodic updates through my house's wifi, so if I use the phone when the Pill isn't broadcasting, I'm not going to get anywhere.

As I said above, when I first put it in, I got information from it while I was standing next to the fermenter, and it couldn't have been reaching the wifi from there. I put an extender next to it, but no data so far. I may go get an access point so the Pill will always be able to contact the wifi.

I hope it's not leaking. I attached the cap as tightly as I thought I could without endangering the O-rings. If it's full of beer, I'll find out in a day or two.
 
Great. Thanks for that. Using your MAC address we can see this device was never registered with the portal.

If the Pill doesn't register correctly no data will ever come up in the portal as the pill will not have any access token. It's possible that when you tried to register that you did no go through the process correctly, the wifi signal was patchy or something else. Basically if you go back to the portal app.rapt.io

1696567270425.png


1. Then go to troubleshooting tab
2. Then click on "reset device authentication"

This should fix the issue for you.

With that said while you have the AP mode open on the pill you can also click on a link in the diagnostics to send telemetry immediately. The reason we have put this in the AP mode is so you can push data to the portal instantly then look on the portal to confirm that the pill is sending telemetry correctly before you drop it into your fermenter. Otherwise you can only confirm the pill is working after you wait some time and see the first telemetry come in depending on what you have the telemetry frequency set to.

Can you please try this and report back.
 
It might also be worth adding that when you say " while I was standing next to the fermenter" I was getting the pill data. This sounds like you connected to the pill while the pill was in AP mode. The access point mode (AP) is when you use your phone to connect to the pill directly. This is not intended for long term use and the pill only stays in AP mode for 10 minutes before going into sleep mode and then wakes up only when it pings the portal to send telemetry.

If you plug the pill back into the charger this will force it back into AP mode for another 10 min.

The AP mode is not intended to be used as the means of collecting data. It's purely for initial setup of the device.

I would highly recommend following all the steps in the manual.
 
If the device is not registered, why does it show up on the portal? That's where I got the MAC address for you.

When I get to my PC, I will check to make sure I transcribed the address correctly.

The manual and app are poorly done, but I did read the manual and use the app.
 
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I checked, and the address I gave you is correct. Looks like you're also having trouble with the device and portal. I will upload a jpg to show that the device shows up on the portal. I assume "portal" means "website." That's what I would have called it.

The website calls the MAC address a "Unique Device Id [sic]." Might want to fix that lower case "D." I'm assuming these terms are interchangeable. If I had written the site's text, I would have used the term "MAC address" in order to avoid confusion.

I had to use the portal in order to get the address, so it's clear the device is registered. I guess I should have explained that. I can't get the information from the device because it's floating in a fermenter, unable to connect with wifi.

The manual, which I did read, does not contain the phrase "AP mode". I will upload a copy of it for reference. It mentions a captive portal. I have never seen the phrase "Captive Portal [sic]" before, so I had to make my best guess as to its meaning, based on my experience with it. Like nearly all your customers, I am not a computer scientist. My degrees are in law and physics, and I have never worked in IT. I took one programming course about a thousand years ago, and I have played around with Arduino. That's about it.

To sum up what I think I have learned about the wifi issue, the Pill has to have a good wifi signal all the time in order to be of any use, so I will need to put an access point next to the refrigerator if I want it to work. If this is wrong, let me know.

When I understand everything, I may write an explanation for my own use, in clear English, adding useful information and avoiding or explaining tech jargon. Maybe I'll post it if anyone wants it.

23 10 06 Rapt portal capture.JPG
 

Attachments

  • KL20596 - RAPT Pill Hydrometer and Thermometer Quick Start Guide.pdf
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The adventure continues.

The Pill is out of the fermenter. I connected to the Pill's wifi, and I also went to the site on my PC and opened the phone app.

The captive app popped up, and I was told the device was not registered. Oddly, it did appear in my list of devices, because I had registered it days before. Apparently there is a twilight world between no registration and full registration.

I was told to click a link with a name like "Add new Device," but there is no such link. I did see a plus sign and a button labeled "REGISTER DEVICE." It's like there are different teams working on this thing, and they never talk to each other. The documentation, app, website, device should tell me the same things. Didn't anyone proofread?

Thinking the system would figure out that the device was already registered and modify the seemingly-defective registration, I did all the registration stuff over and gave the Pill the same name I had given it before. Incidentally, I don't understand why it needs a long name. A one-character name would be fine for my use. I don't expect to run out of numbers or letters.

Now I have two devices with the same name and MAC address.

I picked the right one by luck, and now I'm getting numbers on my phone. Nothing shows up on my PC yet.

Uh oh. One device just disappeared from the list. Hope it's the one that didn't do anything.

I clicked on a link offering me data, thinking it might have graphs or something. It wants me to have a CSV file. I have never used one. Apparently I have to use a spreadsheet to open it. I guess this is thoughtful for people who want to feed data to other programs.

I have other measurement devices that communicate wirelessly, and they just shoot info to phone and PC apps that create graphs and lists without all this fuss. Inkbird does this. I have a shooting chronograph that gives me all sorts of nice tables, and I can export them as PDF's and so on. It's very easy. I can label rows and do all kinds of things. It has both phone and PC apps. Extremely helpful when working up pistol loads in case I have to give a burglar a Florida welcome. I have two barbecue thermometers that give me graphs without registration and websites. They let me set alarms and so on.

Working with the website is really something. I click on links to move around, and nothing happens. Sometimes you have to use the browser's arrows. Sometimes you have to use the little arrow buttons the site generates. Nothing is explained.

I did the standard calibration the first time I registered, but now the device is about 0.012 off. Maybe I have to do it again. No, the phone says it's already calibrated. Wow. Do I have to open a spreadsheet and do a research project to do better than that? I thought it might be a point or two off, which would work for monitoring fermentation progress, but this seems like a lot. Maybe it gets better when the Pill gets used to the temperature? I don't think that can be it, since my tap water is pretty much the same temperature as the surrounding air.

I just recalibrated it. I also renamed it and fixed it so only one device is displayed. I got a graph on my dashboard. I had to find it. There is no link labeled "Graphs." There is a weird little icon with what looks like a mountain on it.

Not getting anywhere with the phone. The app gives me pulsating bars and nothing else.

I don't know if I will try to use the Pill again. It will require a wifi access point all its own, if I want it to work in a stainless fermenter. The calibration seems to shift, and the website, app, and documentation are way below the standards of other manufacturers. Another strange thing: the cap is supposed to be screwed down over both O-rings, but to do this, you would have to apply a tremendous amount of torque, because the second ring has a much bigger external diameter. I'm afraid I'll rip it. The manual doesn't supply specs for the rings. I can order new ones from Canada or China.

If I had confidence in the gravity reading, there was a decent phone app, and the website was more like a real website, I would probably keep trying.

Squirting beer into a graduated cylinder is really easy compared to this.
 
little bit of o-ring grease or any lubricant you feel safe with your beer will make your o-ring issue disappear.

RaptPill might not be your thing.
 
I thought of greasing the rings, but it didn't seem like the cleanest solution.
If you watched their video on their home website, they say to use a little. The videos fill in some of the gaps in the manuals.

I can't really fault them on the manuals. They aren't any better or worse than most other manuals you get with stuff. Some of the stuff you fault them on is just because the manual isn't written expressly for all the subtle and not so subtle differences of the USA English dialect.
 
Yet somehow many, many other companies do a far better job.

A manual should stand on its own. Which problems were caused by linguistic differences?
 
Hello Clint. It's probably easiest for me to respond in parts:

Unique Device ID
It's a valid point that you make about the "unique device ID". In future we are going to change this so it also include the text "MAC address" on the portal so it doesn't cause confusion.

O-ring Tightness
Yes as mentioned due to the double O-ring seal it does cause more resistance when doing the housing up. If you lubricate them slightly it does up quite easily. If however you do not like the double O-ring design then you can remove one O-ring too as we only put 2 in the housing so we have redundancy. If you find it too hard to tighten then you can go to one O-ring and ultimately it would be no worse than our competitors like Tilt that only have one O-ring. With that said I think the the slight increase in force to do the housing up is worth the security in my opinion. If however you want the best solution you might want to consider purchasing the wireless charging kit that enables you to permanently avoid opening the housing ever again. The video on this can be seen here.

Captive Portal/AP(access point) Mode
I am sorry if I confused you when I said AP Mode. It's the same thing and our manual and everywhere else we use the term Captive Portal so I commented on this thread in a way that may have made it more confusing to you. Sorry about that.

Wifi Signal Required
Yes absolutely if you want to use the pill in "WIFI" mode then it will rely on a strong WIFI signal to get reliable transmissions to the portal. With that said if you have another RAPT device like the RAPT Chamber or RAPT Temp controller then you can put the Pill into bluetooth mode and then instead of the pill trying to connect to your AP point directly it can connect with the RAPT Chamber or RAPT temp Controller. This is my preferred method to be honest and several advantages exist when you do this being:
1. You can see the gravity of the beer on the screen of the Chamber or Temp Controller.
2. You can have complex temperature control profiles that use gravity as well as time and temperature.
3. You can use the Pill hydrometer as the temperature probe so no thermowell in your fermenter is required to get a core temperature reading.
4. The bluetooth signal penetrates through chamber walls and stainless steel fementer walls much better than the WIFI signal.
5. Bluetooth is a much lower energy so you can transmit many many more times before you flatten the battery.
So if you wanted to do this I would recommend you watch this video here.


Two devices with the same name and MAC address
If you have two device with the same name and MAC address it sounds like you added them twice. You might want to refer to my previous post when I mentioned clicking on the "troubleshooting" tab here:
1696567270425.png

If you click on troubleshooting here then "reset device authentication" this would have fixed the issue for you. With that said if you add the device again you will end up with a duplicate.

Calibration
We have several different types of calibration. If you are using the INR18650 brand of battery and you are not using the wireless charging coil the simple calibration method is fine. With that said some retailers/resellers are sourcing their own battery that has a different weight so depending where you purchased the pill it might be worth doing the 2 point calibration method as this is highly accurate. When you click on any of the calibration methods it shows a reminder saying that you already have a calibration figure in the pill and this "old" figure will be deleted/overwritten when you calibrate the device again. Perhaps we should change the wording here but generally speaking I am not aware that many customers have found this process confusing. If however you get stuck at any stage of the process I would also recommending the videos online that describe the process in more detail and then you can see visuals of what to do and I think this will help you further if you feel that is required. If you use the two point calibration method you should be able to get way better than 0.012 points off. Most customers can get the pill within about 0.002 points with the relatively quick 2 point calibration method.

Graphs
Yes previously the graphs were the default view. When we had graphs as the defaults we had some of our distribution partners say the portal was confusing to look at and most "basic" customers just wanted to see the current data. As a result we have made the current statistics the "standard" view. We also use this icon here to turn on the "graph" function:
1696838966678.png

If however you think we can make a different picture to show graph we would be more than happy to take your suggestions here. Are you aware of a different picture or icon we can use to display graph that would make more sense. We are always keen to improve the platform so if you feel that we could use a less confusing icon we would be more than happy to change.


Pulsating Bars
If you are getting pulsating bars it's probably because the security token for your device has expired. If you re-start the app or if you are using a web browser if you refresh it will force you back to the login screen. We currently only have a token validity for 1hr but to be honest this is something we are probably being too cautious with and we could probably extend this to 1 day or 1 week so customers dont have to keep logging in all the time. We also see this as a bit of a bug and we have already spoken internally about checking the token validity and if the token is expired it just forces you back to the login page. So this will likely get addressed very soon.


Anyway I think that covers most of your points Clint but if you have any further issues please do not hesitate to contact us at any time. We are here to help our customers.
 
If the device is not registered, why does it show up on the portal? That's where I got the MAC address for you.

When I get to my PC, I will check to make sure I transcribed the address correctly.

The manual and app are poorly done, but I did read the manual and use the app.
Hey Clint.

The reason why the device doesn't show up in the portal is because it was not correctly registered. As mentioned previously you used the correct MAC address in the setup process but perhaps your signal strength was no good or you wifi dropped out momentarily.

The registration process is not just about putting the MAC address into the portal. It's about the portal and the pill getting the same security token so they can securely connect with each other.

If we did not use a security token to connect the pill with the portal then you have one of two problems. Other people could send junk data to your portal login account, or alternatively your data could get stolen by someone else if they just happened to "guess your MAC address" or simply use brute force to try every MAC address.

So to ensure that our customers data is safe we require this security token to be shared between the portal and the device but if the device cannot be contacted the security token cannot be shared.

There are plenty of other devices that do not use this level of security and the devices would be easier to setup if no security token was required but this would also greatly reduce the security too.

Also i should mention that to make sure the pill has very low power consumption we have set the device up so that it very briefly turns on send the wifi data to an endpoint and then goes back to sleep very quickly. This is one of the reasons why the pill has so much better battery life when compared with our competitors that use wifi. As this method of communication is "one way" we have to make sure the security token is sent with the telemetry as there is no chance for the portal to talk back to the pill to verify it's authenticity once it goes back to sleep. We also do not want to keep the pill turned on to wait for an authentication response.
 
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If however you think we can make a different picture to show graph we would be more than happy to take your suggestions here. Are you aware of a different picture or icon we can use to display graph that would make more sense. We are always keen to improve the platform so if you feel that we could use a less confusing icon we would be more than happy to change.
You might consider a similar symbol, but with a single line graph with a dot for the current datum?

Is there hover text? That would help accessibility too.
 
I don't want to keep wrangling about this, but I think a manufacturer's best path is to read feedback more carefully than Kegland has, and to avoid defensiveness and trying to blame the customer. Feedback is a great resource that helps companies change course and make more money.

If I keep working on this thing, at this point, it will be more for the satisfaction of solving the puzzle than anything else. The benefits of wireless hydrometers are small, so the aggravation should be minimal. Pouring a sample into a graduated cylinder is not hard. I have a nice Kegland spigot for that.
 
Clint, if you have a Facebook account I would suggest you join the RAPT Users Group there. There are over 3700 members from all over the world and most are very willing to help fellow members resolve their RAPT related issues.

I did find the initial setup and Pill/Portal a tad kludgy, and at times frustrating, but once I got past all that and understand it better I do feel it's a very useful tool for monitoring fermentation temperature and progress.

I hope you get your registration issue sorted out and are successfully able to use your Pill.
 
Thanks. I got off social media years ago, but that was a thoughtful suggestion that may help others.

As mentioned above, the Pill works now that the system has accepted my second effort to upload the MAC address and code. The gravity drifts when I put the Pill in tap water on my kitchen counter, but the information comes through. I deleted the superfluous registration instance once the other one was up. I have not tried the Pill in a second fermentation because I have not bothered to go out and get an access point. I don't blame Kegland for the range problem. I don't think they ever claimed it would work through two layers of sheet metal.

I don't really want to use it, but it's hard to resist the challenge.

I decided to set my Inkbird controllers up for wifi today. Connecting was a pain, but once it was done, I was able to name my home and the room where they were, and I got graphs very easily. You just click on "Temp. trend diagram," and you get a graph like the one below. It automatically adjusts its range so you don't get tiny changes displayed on a gigantic graph.

23 10 09 Inkbird temp controller app screenshot.jpg
 
You might consider a similar symbol, but with a single line graph with a dot for the current datum?

Is there hover text? That would help accessibility too.

With the hover over text this is something that we are planning to do. Updates like this you can also add directly to the Gitlab board here if you are that way inclined:

https://gitlab.com/rapt.io/public
You can also use this board to see what updates are on the way.
 
I don't want to keep wrangling about this, but I think a manufacturer's best path is to read feedback more carefully than Kegland has, and to avoid defensiveness and trying to blame the customer. Feedback is a great resource that helps companies change course and make more money.

If I keep working on this thing, at this point, it will be more for the satisfaction of solving the puzzle than anything else. The benefits of wireless hydrometers are small, so the aggravation should be minimal. Pouring a sample into a graduated cylinder is not hard. I have a nice Kegland spigot for that.

Hello Clint. I am sorry if what we have said comes across that way. We are genuinely here to help our customers so if you have any other specific points that you are struggling with please let us know on the forum and with a bit of luck some other customers with the same issue will also benefit from the reply too.
 
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