Hi all, I have been brewing all grain full volume brew in a bag for a couple years now. The only water I have been using is reverse osmosis. My mash efficiency is consistent at 83-85% and the beer tastes great. My question is what am I missing out on by using only R.O. Water?
R.O. Water for all grain, how is it effecting my beer?
- Thread starter yugga
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bobeer
Fermentation Specalist
Here's a good read from one of our own, I believe.
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/water-chemistry-how-to-build-your-water.html
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/water-chemistry-how-to-build-your-water.html
McKnuckle
Well-Known Member
Do you successfully brew very dark beer styles (like stout) with the unmodified RO water?
RO water is a perfect place to start, and makes fine beer although the mash pH of very light beers could still be a bit high. If you want to take the beer's flavor to the highest level, you could pay attention to mash pH and make sure it's 5.3-5.6 or so (at room temperature) and if you want you could add some brewing salts for flavor- but if the beer is great now and you're happy with it, then there is no reason to change it.
Because it is a rabbit hole to go down. Try it once and try it side by side. But, I gotta agree with Yooper.
I have been using RO water and follow the water chemistry primer posted on this site
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
If you do try it out, I suggest you read through the entire post so all your questions are answered. It is extremely easy. The beer descriptions for the recommendations was a little tough for me to understand, being a beginner. But after reading through all the posts a few times I started to understand.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
If you do try it out, I suggest you read through the entire post so all your questions are answered. It is extremely easy. The beer descriptions for the recommendations was a little tough for me to understand, being a beginner. But after reading through all the posts a few times I started to understand.
Even when starting with a nearly blank slate with RO or a blank slate with DI water, it still doesn't guarantee good brewing results. John Palmer and I visited a brewery that used straight RO water for all of their brewing...with no mineral or acid additions...at all. The beers did taste like it too. The pale beers were astringent. The hoppy beers were non-descript. The dark beers were acidic.
You really do have to learn to work with your water if you want to produce a range of great beers across all styles. There is NO way around that fact.
You really do have to learn to work with your water if you want to produce a range of great beers across all styles. There is NO way around that fact.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
Martin,
I do not have FB so I could not see all of a post you put up there about RO water and sparging, but I was left with the impression that if I built my mash water profile to fit the beer I was brewing, I could sparge with straight RO water without salt additions.
Is my understanding correct?
I do not have FB so I could not see all of a post you put up there about RO water and sparging, but I was left with the impression that if I built my mash water profile to fit the beer I was brewing, I could sparge with straight RO water without salt additions.
Is my understanding correct?
bigdaddybrew
Well-Known Member
I brew mostly golden beers and was using RO water with decent results but I noticed that my beers were not as "bright" as commercial versions and there was a kind of watery finish. I notice this watery finish at some of the brew pubs I visit and discovered they also use RO water. So I started building my water up with mineral additions using the Bru 'n water Spread sheet...
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/
I came up with a balanced water profile that I use as the backbone of all my beers. I add more Calcium Sulfate to highlight bittering, Calcium Chloride to highlight maltiness and then enter my recipe and adjust the predicted mash PH with citric acid or pickling lime as needed for the mash water. This has "brightened" the flavor of my beers and I no longer get that watery finish.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/
I came up with a balanced water profile that I use as the backbone of all my beers. I add more Calcium Sulfate to highlight bittering, Calcium Chloride to highlight maltiness and then enter my recipe and adjust the predicted mash PH with citric acid or pickling lime as needed for the mash water. This has "brightened" the flavor of my beers and I no longer get that watery finish.
I'm not Martin (and he's grateful for that, I'm sure!) but you are correct about the sparging.
Sparging with 100% RO water is ideal, due to the lack of alkalinity, and you don't need to add salts to it. You can, if you're treating all of your water at once, as long as there is no alkalinity added from sources like baking soda, but you certainly don't 'have to'.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
This just made my brewing simpler and moved it in a strong direction.
I am making the switch to all RO water over the span of a few brew sessions, last brew I used 5/3 RO/Tap water mix for mash and sparge. Next brew it will be 100% RO. The water cost little enough, but the deposit on the jugs is crazy!
T
I am making the switch to all RO water over the span of a few brew sessions, last brew I used 5/3 RO/Tap water mix for mash and sparge. Next brew it will be 100% RO. The water cost little enough, but the deposit on the jugs is crazy!
T
MX1
Texas Ale Works
Last time I hijack maybe:rockin:
Ok, so no salts in the water, do I still need to adjust the sparge for PH with acid? or it really as simple as doing nothing?:fro:
I appreciate all of your replies, it looks like I may have to try making some additions to my water. After all, I think we're all trying to brew the best beer possible. Is the water adjustment process any different for full volume BIAB than traditional mash/sparge?
With RO water, it IS that simple! It's ideal. If you're using other water, you want to neutralize the alkalinity and reduce the pH of the sparge water, but since RO water has negligible alkalinity, you don't even have to do that. 100% RO water is perfect for sparging.
No, it's the same- because you have to pay attention to the mash pH either way. As long as your mash pH is where it should be, the mash thickness doesn't really matter.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
Sweet
MX1
Texas Ale Works
Not at the wall-mart near my house.
I am having to get a full bottle for $16, then the .41 to refill.
Sorry about the Facebook issue, I'll include a link to the Bru'n Water FB page in my signature. I didn't realize that a non-FB user wouldn't be able to find the page. With the link, anyone can go directly to the page.
Yes, you can sparge with straight RO. As a matter of fact, that is the technique I now use when brewing beers like lightly flavored lagers that shouldn't have much ionic content in their water. I add all the salts to the mash tun to create a 40+ ppm Ca content that helps precipitate oxalate from the wort. The sparging water addition, then dilutes the Ca content down to more modest level. As AJ has pointed out, you really do want a basic level of calcium salts in your brewing water to add flavor. He says about 20 ppm Ca is his base level for the finished wort and I agree with it. This entire approach I mention here is preferred for lager brewing. For ale brewing, you will want significantly higher Ca content in the finished wort (generally 50 ppm Ca, but it might go higher if you want to add a lot of chloride or sulfate too.)
Great question. Technically RO water has zero buffering ability or alkalinity (not to be confused with alkaline), which is the ability to resist pH changes made by the addition of acids ie:grain.
There's no salts or minerals, or 'flavorings' in RO water, that's why we add things to it like epsom salts, gypsum, etc.
Since grain mashed in water with no buffering falls in the 5.6 to 5.8 pH range, it's a bit higher than the optimal 5.2 to 5.4 pH range. But if your beer suites your taste and brewing process, your a happy brewer.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
I could read part/most of it, but then it said I needed to log in or sign up.
I use your spread sheet to build my water, and starting with the next brew it will be from all RO; so in short, add the salts/acid to the mash that I need to match the desired water profile and PH , and ignore the salt/acid additions it outputs for the sparge?
It may not be quite that easy if you are using the free version. Adding all the salts to the mash has an effect on the mash pH, so you need to keep that in mind. The supporter's version has the ability to automatically assess the effect on mash pH and on the overall ionic content in the finished wort.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
I use the support version
just look at the can of worms you just opened up!!! there are some very intelligent people on here that can talk about chemistry all day. I thank them for their knowledge, but as I am not a chemist I made it simple for myself. I use RO add 1 tbls of ph stabilizer along with gypsum and calcium(amounts depend on beer your brewing) to strike water, It has made a huge difference in my beer!!now that I have done that I am looking into more of the additives I can ad and what they do. I need to take baby steps or I get overwhelmed and mess everything up trying to do too much when I don't know what I am doing or the results I will get. sparge water use plain RO
If you want to start simple try my way then expand once you know results.
Just my opinion
I found a 2 stage RO unit at an aquarium supply website $129. Iv have had it for 2 years. just tested water (culligan guy) 19ppm that's pretty clean water for a cheap system. Just change the carbon filter once a year and walla beer water and drinking water for all!!
