Questions on a 200L eHerms System Heating Elements & Control Panel

[Sean_SA]

Firstly, let me apologise as I am sure this type of thread comes up often, and I am happy to be directed to a thread that will answer all my questions.

So I am in the costing and planning phase for a 200L eHerms system


Elements

My first question is regarding the heating elements. From what I have read, 2 x 5500w elements per vessel will do the job for a 200L system. Is that correct? Could I go with 1 x 5500w element in the HLT and 2 x 5500w in the kettle? Or would it be best to have 2 x 5500w elements in the HLT as well.

Alternatively, could I get away with sticking 2 x 4000w elements in place of the 2 x 5500w? Making a total of 8000w per vessel. 4000w elements are easy to come by here in South Africa but I would have to import 5500w hence me asking.


Control Panel

This I hope to be putting together myself as well but my electrical knowledge is limited so I just want to clarify a few things.

Does every single heating element in the system require its own contactor and SSR?

When I look at SSR options from a local retailer they have so many different options for a 40A SSR. What are the key specifications I should be looking at with SSR's to ensure I choose the correct one's?

Thanks in advance guys appreciate it.

 

[doug293cz]

Firstly, let me apologise as I am sure this type of thread comes up often, and I am happy to be directed to a thread that will answer all my questions.

So I am in the costing and planning phase for a 200L eHerms system


Elements

My first question is regarding the heating elements. From what I have read, 2 x 5500w elements per vessel will do the job for a 200L system. Is that correct? Could I go with 1 x 5500w element in the HLT and 2 x 5500w in the kettle? Or would it be best to have 2 x 5500w elements in the HLT as well.

Alternatively, could I get away with sticking 2 x 4000w elements in place of the 2 x 5500w? Making a total of 8000w per vessel. 4000w elements are easy to come by here in South Africa but I would have to import 5500w hence me asking.


Control Panel

This I hope to be putting together myself as well but my electrical knowledge is limited so I just want to clarify a few things.

Does every single heating element in the system require its own contactor and SSR?
In my opinion, yes. Otherwise you are looking at 60A - 80A contactors and SSRs. Using separate SSRs and contactors allows some limited power use in case one SSR (or other component) fails. You can control two (or more) SSRs from a single PID or EZBoil. You can control multiple contactors with a single switch, but if you do that, you lose the ability to isolate a failed SSR (to only run with the good SSR.)

When I look at SSR options from a local retailer they have so many different options for a 40A SSR. What are the key specifications I should be looking at with SSR's to ensure I choose the correct one's?
You want SSRs rated at least 40A & 480V, with control inputs rated as 3V - 32V DC. Avoid "Fotek" branded SSRs, as lots of people have had problems with them.

Thanks in advance guys appreciate it.

If you want to be able to run both your HLT and BK at the same time, you will need at least a 100A power feed circuit. I don't know anything about electrical code requirements in SA, so you will need to consult a local licensed electrician.

Brew on

 

[Sean_SA]

Thanks @doug293cz

Will 4,5V - 32V DC be okay for the SSR? See pic below

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks @doug293cz

Will 4,5V - 32V DC be okay for the SSR? See pic below

View attachment 739693

Yes, as long as your SSR controlling device puts out at least 5V DC. Most PID output ~12V DC SSR control signals.

Brew on

 

[stevehaun]

For clarification, are your vessels 200 liters or is your batch size 200 liters? I had 190 liter vessels and my preboil volume was about 150 liters. I had two 4500 watt elements that I ran at 90% power once a boil was achieved. I do not think you will be happy with two 4000 watt elements.

 

[RufusBrewer]

Thanks @doug293cz

Will 4,5V - 32V DC be okay for the SSR? See pic below

View attachment 739693

You will need a heatsink to keep that SSR from burning up. When it comes to heat dissipation, error on the side of too much over "that should be good enough."

When it comes to sizing elements, more watts = shorter ramp up times. It will be proportional. The 5,500 watts will take 4000/5500 ( about .72) of the time to go from X to Y temp. If you can do it, go with 5,500. You will not regret it.

 

[Sean_SA]

For clarification, are your vessels 200 liters or is your batch size 200 liters? I had 190 liter vessels and my preboil volume was about 150 liters. I had two 4500 watt elements that I ran at 90% power once a boil was achieved. I do not think you will be happy with two 4000 watt elements.

I plan to have a 200L system so the vessels will be 200L but that does open up another question. Roughly what pre boil volume can I expect with a 200L system? How much headspace should I leave and what volume could I expect going into the ferment after the boil?

 

[Sean_SA]

You will need a heatsink to keep that SSR from burning up. When it comes to heat dissipation, error on the side of too much over "that should be good enough."

When it comes to sizing elements, more watts = shorter ramp up times. It will be proportional. The 5,500 watts will take 4000/5500 ( about .72) of the time to go from X to Y temp. If you can do it, go with 5,500. You will not regret it.

Yes I will have a heatsink.

2 x 5500w will most likely be my goal. It will mean I will have to import but that's just something I'll have to do

My other concern is whether the electrical system will handle it. I'm still in the process of learning but it seems that if I want have 2 x 5500w elements in my HLT and Kettle then I'll need to upgrade my circuit to 3 phase and that is one costly exercise from what I have read. Would I still be able to stay single phase with this kinda system? Of course I intend to have an electrician check this out but perhaps I can get some clarity on that

I understand that if I chose to run elements in both vessels at the same time it would shorten the brew day but I would be more than okay with running it in such a way that prevents both sets of elements being required to fire at the same time i.e. once all sparging is complete I can fire up the boil kettle elements. I live on a large property that runs 4 geysers (hot water heaters) off the same DB board. They each have 3kw elements so that means that at times, they are all pulling a collective 12kw. This gives me hope but I am not clued up on it enough to know whether this means I can run the intended system without issues. I've established I will need a dedicated circuit breaker installed

 

[RufusBrewer]

When you've say 200L system, do you mean 200L vessels or producing 200L of beer? 200L vessels imply roughly 100L batches = ~26.5 gallons.

You would be best to talk to an electrician. Tell him you need a system with a budget of 22,000 to 24,000 watts.

You could reduce your eHERMS volume. You only need enough water to cover the coil. Much less than 200L. Heating sparge water, if you plan your brew day, time heating sparge water can be less annoying, if you are prepping and have other tasks.

This looks like system where a RIMS might be a valid choice.

It is a balancing act of priorities and compromised and understanding real world practical options. IMHO, firing both kettles the same time would be nice, but I would not spend slot of money for the convenience.

 

[oakbarn]

We use a modified eHerms using a Copper Counter Flow Chiller and a Quadzilla ( QuadZilla – BruControl). You could use a 4000 w element here instead. Basically we heat the water bath in a RIMS tube and flow that through outside tube of the Counterflow while the wort is circulated on the inner tube.

 

[doug293cz]

We use a modified eHerms using a Copper Counter Flow Chiller and a Quadzilla ( QuadZilla – BruControl). You could use a 4000 w element here instead. Basically we heat the water bath in a RIMS tube and flow that through outside tube of the Counterflow while the wort is circulated on the inner tube.

Clever! No worries about scorching wort in the RIMS tube, and better dynamic response than a traditional HERMS.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

My other concern is whether the electrical system will handle it. I'm still in the process of learning but it seems that if I want have 2 x 5500w elements in my HLT and Kettle then I'll need to upgrade my circuit to 3 phase and that is one costly exercise from what I have read. Would I still be able to stay single phase with this kinda system? Of course I intend to have an electrician check this out but perhaps I can get some clarity on that

I understand that if I chose to run elements in both vessels at the same time it would shorten the brew day but I would be more than okay with running it in such a way that prevents both sets of elements being required to fire at the same time i.e. once all sparging is complete I can fire up the boil kettle elements. I live on a large property that runs 4 geysers (hot water heaters) off the same DB board. They each have 3kw elements so that means that at times, they are all pulling a collective 12kw. This gives me hope but I am not clued up on it enough to know whether this means I can run the intended system without issues. I've established I will need a dedicated circuit breaker installed

You might be able to stick with single phase, depending on what your local electrical codes allow. For example, my house has a 200A service @ 240V single phase. This can provide 48KW of intermittent power or 38KW of continuous power.

You don't actually have to run your HLT element while sparging. The water will stay hot for quite a while with the power off. Also, you don't even really need hot water for sparging - it just makes heating to a boil faster. So, turn off the HLT elements while sparging, and turn on the BK elements as soon as you have the element covered during the lautering. You may need to run at reduced power until the volume builds up to avoid boiling during the lauter.

Brew on

 

[oakbarn]

It takes quite a bit of power to heat water and a lot to change state to Boiling, but that is just time for the Strike Water. We Fill our HLT to the brim and heat to Strike. Normally this is about 74 c or so. We normally heat a little higher to take care preheating the Mash Tun. We also add it couple of degrees higher than Strike even if the Mash Tun is preheated. We just let it cool naturally to Strike. If we are low we set up an exchange between the Mash Tun and the HLT. This requires two pumps but we have a Pump for every vessel. We just flow from one to the other and from the other to the one. You just have to watch the volume as one may pump quicker than the other. We rarely have to do this if we are too hot with the Strike.

Brewery Rule #5: It is much easier to Cool Mash than Heat it.

Once the water is at Temperature, it takes much less power to keep it heated. You may even find that it may take two elements to reach a boil in the BK, but only one to maintain it. One Element in the HLT would work, but take a fair bit of time.

One way to do it is to heat some water in the BK and then transfer to the HLT after you have added the Strike to the Mash Tun. You need the BK almost empty for your first run, so you cannot keep a lot of water in it, but it can heat water to be moved to the HLT that would help with recovery time.

In the USA, Continuous use means expected Maximum Current for 3 Hours. In the USA, a 30 Amp circuit can Power one 5500 Watt element (240 v) for as long as you want as the max allowed continuous load is 24 amps. The 5500 W 240 v pulls 22.91 amps.

You need to look at BTU Calculators (online) to figure out if your two 4000 W Elements would work to boil water.

 

[RufusBrewer]

We use a modified eHerms using a Copper Counter Flow Chiller and a Quadzilla ( QuadZilla – BruControl). You could use a 4000 w element here instead. Basically we heat the water bath in a RIMS tube and flow that through outside tube of the Counterflow while the wort is circulated on the inner tube.

Interesting. How do you handle temperature regulation? Do you have a PID? Where is the temp prob placed?

How do you heat strike water?

 

[oakbarn]

We use BruControl (BruControl – Process Automation Made Personal) as the controller with a Crydom Proportional Controller (10PCV2450 | PCV Series | Control Relays | Products | Crydom) controlled as a PID (and a Contractor). To heat the HLT we use two Standard SSR and two Contactors (for 2 elements). We have both hot legs go through the contactor and control one leg with the Proportional Controller or the SSR. We use Hysteresis for the HLT (63 gal with two 5500 w elements) . We use a smaller (15 Gal) Radiator HLT water for the bath and it is generally a few degrees below our desired Mash as the Quadzilla heats the already heated water. There is no Element in the Radiator as the Quadzilla can handle it easily. (we did out an Element Fitting but do not use it).

We only have the contactors powered when we are using the elements, otherwise both legs are dead. In addition we have Manual cutoff switches when we are not brewing, so the circuits are dead to the contactors.

We have several probes, but we control the temp of the water bath in the rims tube with a temp probe on the outlet side of the RIMS tube. We found we chased a rabbit if trying to control via a probe in the Wort before it enters the Mash Tun return. But we do use that to adjust the RIMS if necessary manually. We generally can "dial it in" fairly quickly and generally settles to the same Temperature.

We have 4 x 30 AMP circuits (All 240v) for the Elements We have a 225 AMP Panel but it is a Barn office and our Brewery. When Brewing, there is hardly anything other than lights in the Office, so we have plenty of power. Our Elements are on a 100 amp Sub Panel protected by a 100amp breaker.

 

[Bobby_M]

A 200L kettle size will realistically brew about 120L finished batches at reasonable ABV. There's a minimum amount of power required to maintain a rolling boil, but anything above that is just going to shorten the ramp up time. In the HLT, you can approach it a few ways. If your HERMS is only for temp maintain, you don't need too much power especially since you can start heating early on a timer or use the higher power in the boil kettle to reach strike temps faster. If you want the HLT to be capable of step mashing through the HERMS, you'll want 11K watts. There's no reason you can't use 4k elements but I would use three in the HLT and in the BK.

 

[Sean_SA]

When you've say 200L system, do you mean 200L vessels or producing 200L of beer? 200L vessels imply roughly 100L batches = ~26.5 gallons.

I meant 200L vessels but have since learned that the expected batch is 50% of vessel size. I wasn't scaling it correctly in my head initially and I was thinking that it would be possible to start with a pre boil of around 180L which would be a terrible idea of course...

 

[Sean_SA]

A 200L kettle size will realistically brew about 120L finished batches at reasonable ABV. There's a minimum amount of power required to maintain a rolling boil, but anything above that is just going to shorten the ramp up time. In the HLT, you can approach it a few ways. If your HERMS is only for temp maintain, you don't need too much power especially since you can start heating early on a timer or use the higher power in the boil kettle to reach strike temps faster. If you want the HLT to be capable of step mashing through the HERMS, you'll want 11K watts. There's no reason you can't use 4k elements but I would use three in the HLT and in the BK.

I've since been looking at brewing 100L to 110L batches in a 200L vessel system and maybe pushing it to 120L. I do intend to do step mashing... what's your thoughts on 2 x 4.5kw, still a bit on the low side? Alternatively I've since found a local supplier with 6KW elements but 2 x 6KW kinda seems like overkill so could a combination of 4.5KW and 6KW work alright in the same vessel? I'd prefer not to have more than 2 elements in each of the kettles so not so keen on the 3 x 4KW.

 

[stevehaun]

I agree with Bobby on batch size. I used to brew 30 gallon (114 l) batches in a 55 gallon (209 l) kettle. As stated previously, I powered both the BK and the HLT with two 4500 watt elements. My HLT was 15 gallons (57 l). I had no problems maintaining a mash temp but step mashes were essentially unattainable. The rate limiting step for me was HERMS flow relative to the size of the thermal mass of the mash. Personally, I think you will be much happier with two 6000 watt elements in both the BK and the HLT.

 

[oakbarn]

120 litres of wort from 60 c to 100 c with two 6000 w elements would take 30 minutes.

With 10000 w it would take an extra 6 minutes.

That being said: Bigger is always better, just ask ......

In the USA, you would need a 40 amp circuit for each 6000 w element for continuous full use. If you limited it to 3 hours at 100% then down to .93, you could use a 30 amp circuit. Not sure what your regulations are, but you would likely not use full power for more than a couple of hours, so ...

On the other hand, if you are adding circuits and they can supply 40 amps for each element, I would do that. At my Brewery, the supplied power to the barn will not allow that.