Question on yeast and secondarys

[weaselburner]

I'm a little question maniac lately I've just been doing a lot of reading to fine-tune everything and keep running across things i need to understand better. As has been discussed quite a bit around here, i don't think that using a secondary is really necessary unless you're doing additions of specialty ingredients or dry-hopping, but I've recently been reading about pitching rates and how they tend to be too low in a home-brew setting. The best source of adequate pitching rates, a couple of sources have told me, is re-pitching yeast from previous batches. As yeast viability decreases over time, do you guys think it's an acceptable compromise to move my brews off of a "4 week in primary" schedule and rack them to a secondary after a week to gain access to my yeast cake for the purpose of re-pitching or have any of you experienced problems with flavor from racking? The general goal would still be 4 weeks total in fermentation vessels before moving them to bottles/kegs while gaining access to a healthier yeast for pitching in my next batch. You guys are the best and i appreciate all the help you've given me lately.

 

[JLem]

Yup. Even though i am strongly in the no-secondary camp, that sounds like a fine reason to move your beer.

 

[unionrdr]

But not after 1 week. Since the average home brewer "underpitches",then it'd take more than 1 week to get down to a stable FG before racking to secondary.

 

[weaselburner]

right
i mean after fermentation basically. hopefully i'll be seeing those times reduce once i'm pitching at the right rate though

 

[Captain Damage]

No. The yeast cake is what cleans up your beer when you give it a long primary, not the total fermentation time. Moving your beer to a secondary, off the primary yeast cake, defeats the purpose of a long primary.

 

[JLem]

I missed the whole 1 week part. That seems too quick to me. But 2 weeks should be sufficient. Fermentation is probably done by day 4 or 5 and another 7-10 days to "clean up" should be sufficient.

 

[Captain Damage]

Just so we're all on the same page re timeframes: Those of us doing the "long primary" thing are typically doing 3 weeks. Some are doing 2, some are doing 4, but 3 seems to be the standard average. That's not to say that your beer won't be great after just one week; nor does it mean that longer time = better. E.g., don't assume that 8 weeks will make your beer twice as good as 4 weeks. But I can say that I've made some great beer with 3 weeks on the primary.

 

[Atonk]

I usually dry hop or add something else that requires secondary fermentation, but I always shoot for minimum two weeks on the yeast cake.

 

[weaselburner]

hrmmmm i might just knock my old schedual down from 4 weeks to 3 weeks and pitch the 3 week old yeast in higher quantity after that. i had a sneaking suspicion the time on the yeast cake itself was what was making my beer taste better than they had when i was fermenting for shorter times in primary. if the studies i've been looking at are correct, i should get enough viable yeast that way as long as i keep everything below ambient temp. thanks again for the time and help, guys

 

[pjj2ba]

No. The yeast cake is what cleans up your beer when you give it a long primary, not the total fermentation time. Moving your beer to a secondary, off the primary yeast cake, defeats the purpose of a long primary.

This is not correct. The yeast that are still in suspension are the ones that are actively metabolizing the sugars and other stuff in the beer and provide the clean up service. Once the yeast settle out they contribute little to the fermentation/maturation of the beer. This is why some of the highly flocculating yeast are prone to having a stuck fermentation as they drop out too fast.

The purpose of a long primary is to extract some yeasty bready flavors for having all the extra yeast around. (Also because sometimes we, including myself, just don't get around to dealing with it sooner). The presence of the yeast cake is not need for the beer to properly clean up.

A properly pitched wort of under say 1.060 can easily be done fermenting within 7 days. Then it can age where ever you want to, in the primary or move to a secondary.

If you like the flavors of the long primary, then stick with it. If you are kegging, then you can take a carboy cap with a racking cane in it,take the tip off, and put that into your cake after 7 or so days. Use some CO2 to push some of the yeast into a sanitized container. If you don't have CO2, it can still be done, but is a little trickier. Use the same cap and racking cane, but now you want to be able to pull a vacuum on the container you are harvesting into. The best would be to have a vacuum flask which is already set up to do this. Kinda like this below. In this image, just replace the flask on the right with you racking cane/cap and pull the vacuum (sucking is fine as you mouth is "downstream" of where the yeast will be collected) Alternatives to the vacuum flask would be a regular flask, and just use a two holed stopper, one hole for tubing to the racking cane, and one for tuging to pull the vacuum. Or, you can take a mason jar and drill two holes in a lid and attach and caulk some fittings to that so you can attach tubing.

 

[weaselburner]

thanks for the advice, pj. I have been much happier with my beer since i switched to 4 week primarys (partly because the flavor is more what i'm shooting for and partly 'cause it keeps the beer outa my greedy mouth longer ) and this method seems like a really good way to have my cake and eat it too. My racking cane is a 2-piece that creates it's own suction for siphoning. with this setup is there a reason to apply suction to the outlet tube of the collection flask or can i just submerge it in a small amount of water to allow air to escape and prohibit contaminated air to re-enter?

 

[pjj2ba]

Duh (slaps forehead). An Autosiphon is a great way to harvest yeast. Just take the "cap" off the end. Since you want to leave the beer behind and get as much yeast as possible, I would put your receiving container at the same level (or above that) of the top of your beer. Now pump the yeast over. This way you won't be creating a difficult to control siphon that will likely remove more beer and less yeast than you want. It will only move the yeast when you pump.

Be careful though as it will flow backwards when you are done so be quick removing the autosiphon from your fermenter.

 

[weaselburner]

i long ago took off the cap on my auto-siphon and now it won't go back on so i'm already working with the ideal setup!!

 

[Captain Damage]

The purpose of a long primary is to extract some yeasty bready flavors for having all the extra yeast around.

This is not what those of us who routinely do long primaries think we're getting out of it. The idea is that the yeast is cleaning up off-flavors such as (but not only) diacetyl. I'm introspective enough to realize that through the evolution of my process, there are lots of things that could have contributed to the improvement of my beers since I've started doing long primaries. But my beers are better now than they were before I started the practice. I will say that my beers don't seem to taste breadier or yeastier.

 

[pjj2ba]

Quote:
The purpose of a long primary is to extract some yeasty bready flavors for having all the extra yeast around.

This is not what those of us who routinely do long primaries think we're getting out of it. The idea is that the yeast is cleaning up off-flavors such as (but not only) diacetyl.

The question is which yeast are doing the clean-up job - and the answer is the yeast still in suspension. The yeast that have settled out contribute very little to the maturation process - at least the metabolically active components, like diacetyl removal. The beer does pick up flavors from sitting on the yeast cake. They can be very subtle, and not very noticeable in some styles, but they are there none the less. Many folks do like the flavors.

For me the take home lesson is, do bulk age your beers. Whether you do this in primary or secondary is a personal choice.