Pumpkin Saison recipe - for your review

[CZs]

Hi Everyone - I've only been home-brewing for 6 months and this is my 4th all grain batch. My wife loves Saisons (so do I) so I've spent a little more time with this style - seems to be a forgiving style for someone new to the realm. I've done a Koslch, Tripel/Dubbel Hybrid, and a more traditional Saison. Anyways, I was inspired by Poobah's Stingy Jack recipe so I thought I better get started now and hear what some of you vets have to say about my recipe before I brew for next fall.

Also, if anyone has any experience drinking a commercially available pumpkin saison, I'd love to hear what you liked/didn't like about that - I've only found reviews on Trinity's Pumpkin Saison but haven't heard much on this unique take on Saison since. Thanks in advance!

Here it goes - My "All Hallows' Evening Saison" - Wyeast French Saison 3711 - 7.5 boil size, 5.5 gal batch, 90 min boil, used 3, 29 oz (87 oz or 5.44 lbs) cans of Libby's, roasted at 375F for an hour
OG 1.064
FG 1.000
ABV - 6.75%
IBU 26.8
SRM 11.94

Fermentables:
9lb - Belgian 2-row - 70.6%
.5lb - Belgian Biscuit - 3.9%
.75lb - Belgian Unmalted Wheat - 5.9%
.75lb - American White Wheat - 5.9%
.5lb - German Acidulated Malt - 3.9%
.5lb - Flaked Oats - 3.9%
.25 - UK Pale Chocolate - 2%
.5lbs - Home made Pumpkin Candi Sugar - Snick's DAP use in forming maillard reactions plus adding Cinnamon, Clove, Nutmeg, Vanilla in Green Mountain French Toast Coffee and adding cold steeped mix at cooldown before bringing to hard crack - this addition was key I think in flavor and aroma, but hey, what do I know - the taste in the green bottle is noticeable but soft - exactly what I was going for - 3.9%

Mash Steps
1 - Protein Rest - 8qt - 125F for 25 min
2 - Canned Pumpkin Addition 1 - 8 qt plus 29 oz roasted Libby's, 140F for 20 min
3 - Canned Pumpkin Addition 2 - 8 qt plus 29 oz roasted Libby's, 150F for 15 min
4 - Additional Rest - 4 qt, 150F for 30 min
5 - Fly Sparge 2 qts 170F water, Batch Sparge until reach desired clarity
Note: I ordered all my grains and additional ingredients before I read up on how rice hulls help however I didn't get stuck - I thought a larger amount of qts water/lb of grain would help with this

Boil
1 oz Hops - Willamette - 24 min
Canned Pumpkin Addition 3 - 29 oz roasted Libby's for 20 min
Wyeast Nutrient Blend Solution - 1/2 tsp in 4 oz water solution at 10 min
Homemade Pumpkin Candi Sugar - .5 lbs total - .17 lbs at 8, 6, 4 minute increments
1 oz Hops - Nugget - 5 min

Fermentation
3.5 weeks in primary at 70F.
Used 4.75 oz cane/turbinado sugar w 2 cups water solution in bottling bucket - 4 oz of cane to .75 oz of turbinado
Will aim for 3.5 weeks in bottle before I share with anyone other than the wife.

Notes:
I was shocked to hit the OG and shocked it got it down to 1.000 - I was concerned about it being too dry for incorporating pumpkin. Well, I'm only 9 days into bottling but I am very proud of how it is tasting thus far. You get the vegetal pumpkin and peppery 3711 saison in the nose, and the flavor is a soft pumpkin spice where the clove and vanilla stand out with just hints of cinnamon and nutmeg in the background. I wanted to aim for this being a "Oh yea, this is def a fall tasting beer" and not flat out "WOW, a lot of pumpkin in this one." The wife says it is as soft pumpkin pie like taste while still being able to notice it is a dry saison. We both think that without the pumpkin candi sugar I made we might only get the vegetal in the nose and nothing else other than saison character.

Questions/Remarks for my fellow enthusiasts:
Have anyone of you used both real sweet pumpkin and libby's canned and have notes to compare the tastes? I was surprised how vegetal Libby's was, almost like a soup-like tinge to the nose, so was glad I went with that instead of the pre-spiced mix - think I would have been playing dangerously close to being over spiced otherwise. I am game for trying real sweet pumpkin (not jack o lanterns) next time if you think it is remarkably better but for season's sake - couldn't get my hands on any for this trial run. Has anyone incorporated other spices or candi sugar, and is set on doing pumpkin in mash v. boil - seems like an ongoing debate, so I did 2/3 in mash and 1/3 in boil to kinda' split the difference. I know Saisons can have that haze to them, but was glad it came out as clear as it did considering the sediment I got from boiling 1/3 of it. My only complaint is that I'm not getting something "pie crusty" from the biscuit or malty from the pale chocolate - I used .25 lb special B in my first saison I did and it was a nice background character - might consider using Special B in the 2nd go around of this one. Lastly - any benefit to ramping up the temperature for a Pumpkin Saison other than wanting more Saison over the pumpkin - I didn't want to do this because I wanted balance or do you think ramping it up would have made pumpkin flavors more noticeable?

 

[kingwood-kid]

You don't need to mash pumpkin; it has almost zero convertible starches. You also don't need to roast the canned pumpkin, as it's pre-roasted. Heck, you don't even need to boil it. When I made my Belgian Pumpkin, I just poured the hot wort onto the pumpkin. I'm sure the heat provided all the necessary sanitation that pumpkin straight out of the can needed and this sped the cooling. Pumpkin is loaded with soluble fiber (beta-glucans in beer terms), which will give you a fuller mouthfeel.

I think your idea of adding Special B is a good one. Some crystal sweetness would help bring out the pie-filling flavor. If you want it crustier, you could up the biscuit, or change the base malt to Vienna or a pils/Munich mix. Something else that might help would be switching the 5 minute hops to something spicy, instead of the more herbal Nuggets. I used Saaz, but any German-type noble or the American equivalent would give a similar effect. Crystal hops in particular seem appropriate.

 

[peanasky]

I'm not really able to make any comments on the recipe, as I've never made a saison, and only have had a few commercial examples. BUT I am posting so I can keep track of this recipe because it sounds delicious.

I look forward to hearing more as the beer ages and conditions.

 

[CZs]

You don't need to mash pumpkin; it has almost zero convertible starches. You also don't need to roast the canned pumpkin, as it's pre-roasted. Heck, you don't even need to boil it. When I made my Belgian Pumpkin, I just poured the hot wort onto the pumpkin. I'm sure the heat provided all the necessary sanitation that pumpkin straight out of the can needed and this sped the cooling. Pumpkin is loaded with soluble fiber (beta-glucans in beer terms), which will give you a fuller mouthfeel.

I think your idea of adding Special B is a good one. Some crystal sweetness would help bring out the pie-filling flavor. If you want it crustier, you could up the biscuit, or change the base malt to Vienna or a pils/Munich mix. Something else that might help would be switching the 5 minute hops to something spicy, instead of the more herbal Nuggets. I used Saaz, but any German-type noble or the American equivalent would give a similar effect. Crystal hops in particular seem appropriate.

Thanks for the roast v. no roast info. What is strange is that the FG read 1.000 but it didn't feel too dry - can it be loaded with these beta-glucans and still not add body but give the fuller mouth feel effect? Like I said, I def got the vegetal in the nose but not necessarily in taste so it seems like it converted the canned pumpkin well enough for aroma anyways. I wasn't 100% sold on using Nugget but your herbal description is what I thought might make it go well with the pumpkin theme - I've used Tettnang in a Kolsch but thought it was too spicy - maybe the pumpkin would offset this. Thanks for upping the crust info - maybe next time I will up Biscuit % in place of Pils - like another 3-5%, replace chocolate with special B and ditch a % of wheat for a lower crystal - like 20L?

 

[CZs]

I'm not really able to make any comments on the recipe, as I've never made a saison, and only have had a few commercial examples. BUT I am posting so I can keep track of this recipe because it sounds delicious.

I look forward to hearing more as the beer ages and conditions.

thanks - I will make sure to keep on top of this as it progresses - Saisons are quickly becoming a favorite - I also love Dark Strongs and Dubbels so I'm playing around with the idea of a little black licorice / amaretto infusion into one of those styles

what are some of your recent recipes? - always eager to learn / trade experiences with others

 

[kingwood-kid]

Thanks for the roast v. no roast info. What is strange is that the FG read 1.000 but it didn't feel too dry - can it be loaded with these beta-glucans and still not add body but give the fuller mouth feel effect? Like I said, I def got the vegetal in the nose but not necessarily in taste so it seems like it converted the canned pumpkin well enough for aroma anyways. I wasn't 100% sold on using Nugget but your herbal description is what I thought might make it go well with the pumpkin theme - I've used Tettnang in a Kolsch but thought it was too spicy - maybe the pumpkin would offset this. Thanks for upping the crust info - maybe next time I will up Biscuit % in place of Pils - like another 3-5%, replace chocolate with special B and ditch a % of wheat for a lower crystal - like 20L?

I like these changes. You could leave the late hops out entirely if you want. The spices in the candi sugar and the yeast flavors might be all you need. The FG of 1.000 is largely a measure of sugars in solution, but the low-density of the alcohol will give you an artificially low reading. You've actually got about 8.5% ABV in there, but you've also got 1.025ish worth of longer-chain sugars that are still in the beer. I don't think that includes the beta-glucans, but I may be wrong. Wheat and oats are also pretty beta-glucany. This beer should really help lower your cholesterol. Saison yeasts in general, and 3711 especially, produce a lot of glycerol, which doesn't alter the FG but provides a slight sweetness and the silky mouthfeel Wyeast mentions.

 

[MonsterBrew]

All good information above. However I have an important note to add. I brewed a pumpkin ale for Thanksgiving last year. It turned out delicious. I used 8lbs of roasted raw pumpkin in the primary. Turns out, very little to no flavor will come from the pumpkin.

What you will need to likely do to bring out the "pumpkin" flavor, is add a spice extract consisting of cinnamon, allspice, clove, and ginger. How much is up to you, but thats what really gave it the pumpkin taste. People don't associate pumpkin with squash, they associate it with pumpkin pie. I would suggest mixing these spice, boil them with some water for a while, and put the extract into the primary.

I can try to find the amounts when I get home this evening if you are interested.

 

[CZs]

I like these changes. You could leave the late hops out entirely if you want. The spices in the candi sugar and the yeast flavors might be all you need. The FG of 1.000 is largely a measure of sugars in solution, but the low-density of the alcohol will give you an artificially low reading. You've actually got about 8.5% ABV in there, but you've also got 1.025ish worth of longer-chain sugars that are still in the beer. I don't think that includes the beta-glucans, but I may be wrong. Wheat and oats are also pretty beta-glucany. This beer should really help lower your cholesterol. Saison yeasts in general, and 3711 especially, produce a lot of glycerol, which doesn't alter the FG but provides a slight sweetness and the silky mouthfeel Wyeast mentions.

I need the cholesterol help - the more I think about it - the 5 min hop addition was probably just a fear of mine - never having used pumpkin I thought the saison might be ruined by this pumpkiny, malty sweetness so while the recipe stated 26.8 IBUs, I thought that the pumpkin would somehow lower the bitterness a few points creating too much of a dessert feeling, instead of standing out as a balanced pumpkin take of a saison and something you'd like to have 2 of, instead of slowly sipping 1 because it is sickly sweet/pumpkiny. The candi sugar was originally just for abv, but I wanted the pumpkin spice so I figured I would get adventurous and combine the two ideas - hoping the spice would be in the background instead of adding the raw spices right into the boil - a steeped hint v. Yes, this is most def loaded with sweet pumpkiny flavors and pumpkin pie spice

so are you saying that the longer-chain sugars are coming from the candi sugar or the pumpkin or both - that is a pretty big jump from 6.75 to 8.5 abv - is that "as is" or with potential changes - sorry, just wanting to understand

 

[CZs]

All good information above. However I have an important note to add. I brewed a pumpkin ale for Thanksgiving last year. It turned out delicious. I used 8lbs of roasted raw pumpkin in the primary. Turns out, very little to no flavor will come from the pumpkin.

What you will need to likely do to bring out the "pumpkin" flavor, is add a spice extract consisting of cinnamon, allspice, clove, and ginger. How much is up to you, but thats what really gave it the pumpkin taste. People don't associate pumpkin with squash, they associate it with pumpkin pie. I would suggest mixing these spice, boil them with some water for a while, and put the extract into the primary.

I can try to find the amounts when I get home this evening if you are interested.

I've read that the pumpkin doesn't contribute much, pretty much every argument out there, but was curious about adding either raw pumpkin, roasted pumpkin or Libby's - which I understand was already roasted but I roasted again anyways, into the boil - I will say, there is a def, obvious vegetal note (like you said - squash like, not pumpkin like) in the aroma along with the 3711 peppery characteristic. By adding the extract into the primary - did you get a very spice-forward pumpkin brew? I kind of back-doored the spices by adding the steeped mix into my candi-sugar instead of adding the steeped mix into the boil or primary -, obviously the candi went into the boil (and so goes the steeped mix in the candi) anyways - I think the result of that was noticeable soft notes that played well with the saison and maybe it would have been different if it was just right into the liquid instead of in the candi. Maybe split batch is in order!

I'm absolutely interested and would enjoy your amount information - did you do a brown ale for your pumpkin brew?

 

[MonsterBrew]

It wasn't quite dark enough to be considered a brown ale. It had a nice copper glow to it.

I was very pleased with the spice extract I added. I didn't want it to be too spicy myself, but just kept that in mind for the total spices added. Funny enough, because I was caught off guard by needing the spices. I added them about 4 days before hitting the tap. Turned out great.

I'll look for the spices and notes tonight.

 

[CZs]

It wasn't quite dark enough to be considered a brown ale. It had a nice copper glow to it.

I was very pleased with the spice extract I added. I didn't want it to be too spicy myself, but just kept that in mind for the total spices added. Funny enough, because I was caught off guard by needing the spices. I added them about 4 days before hitting the tap. Turned out great.

I'll look for the spices and notes tonight.

sounds like a great experience - some great ideas coming from this, I might just have to come up with some hybrid from mine and all of the suggestions popping up

Do you know what the SRM is on yours - I had this Mr. Beer brew that came out copper - deeper than amber but not truly brown, and just came up with some ideas for a Copper Saison where I can utilize Special B and maybe use an amaretto mix in primary

 

[kingwood-kid]

I need the cholesterol help - the more I think about it - the 5 min hop addition was probably just a fear of mine - never having used pumpkin I thought the saison might be ruined by this pumpkiny, malty sweetness so while the recipe stated 26.8 IBUs, I thought that the pumpkin would somehow lower the bitterness a few points creating too much of a dessert feeling, instead of standing out as a balanced pumpkin take of a saison and something you'd like to have 2 of, instead of slowly sipping 1 because it is sickly sweet/pumpkiny. The candi sugar was originally just for abv, but I wanted the pumpkin spice so I figured I would get adventurous and combine the two ideas - hoping the spice would be in the background instead of adding the raw spices right into the boil - a steeped hint v. Yes, this is most def loaded with sweet pumpkiny flavors and pumpkin pie spice

so are you saying that the longer-chain sugars are coming from the candi sugar or the pumpkin or both - that is a pretty big jump from 6.75 to 8.5 abv - is that "as is" or with potential changes - sorry, just wanting to understand

The unfermented longer chain sugars (dextrins) are from the grains, you'll have some in every beer. Thank goodness, or you'd basically have diluted whiskey instead of beer. You actually have fewer of them in this beer than in most others, as 3711 is hungrier than most other yeasts. The candi sugar you made is all simple sugars, so it fermented close to 100%, which, along with the 3711, is why your FG is so low and your ABV so high. Beer software doesn't accurately predict attenuation/FG/ABV when large amounts of sugar are added to the recipe, and from what I've seen, underrated 3711's power as well. You should be able to change the default attenuation to something more realistic, although certainly there's guesswork involved.

All of the mouthfeel elements I mentioned won't make the beer sweeter in a Pixie Sticks way, but they'll help tame the dryness and bitterness. Sometimes a good thing, sometimes not.

 

[peanasky]

thanks - I will make sure to keep on top of this as it progresses - Saisons are quickly becoming a favorite - I also love Dark Strongs and Dubbels so I'm playing around with the idea of a little black licorice / amaretto infusion into one of those styles

what are some of your recent recipes? - always eager to learn / trade experiences with others

Recently I just brewed a Golden Promise/Pacific Jade SMaSH. One of my favorite combo's. I'm going to be trying to nail down an easy-drinkin wheat beer to get ready for my wedding in a few years (long story). Another recipe I've recently done was an AG version of ChshreCat's Double Chocolate Oatmeal Stout (link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/double-chocolate-oatmeal-snout-126638/)

 

[CZs]

The unfermented longer chain sugars (dextrins) are from the grains, you'll have some in every beer. Thank goodness, or you'd basically have diluted whiskey instead of beer. You actually have fewer of them in this beer than in most others, as 3711 is hungrier than most other yeasts. The candi sugar you made is all simple sugars, so it fermented close to 100%, which, along with the 3711, is why your FG is so low and your ABV so high. Beer software doesn't accurately predict attenuation/FG/ABV when large amounts of sugar are added to the recipe, and from what I've seen, underrated 3711's power as well. You should be able to change the default attenuation to something more realistic, although certainly there's guesswork involved.

All of the mouthfeel elements I mentioned won't make the beer sweeter in a Pixie Sticks way, but they'll help tame the dryness and bitterness. Sometimes a good thing, sometimes not.

ohhh - gotcha - thanks!

 

[CZs]

Recently I just brewed a Golden Promise/Pacific Jade SMaSH. One of my favorite combo's. I'm going to be trying to nail down an easy-drinkin wheat beer to get ready for my wedding in a few years (long story). Another recipe I've recently done was an AG version of ChshreCat's Double Chocolate Oatmeal Stout (link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/double-chocolate-oatmeal-snout-126638/)

I was originally wanting to use the Pacific Jade in my first Saison, but my wife talked me out of it and to go with Pacifica instead - how do you like it?

I will be interested to hear your experience with your wheat as I'm looking to brew one for my bro-in-law for the summer - that's all he likes to drink - his favorites are Flying Dog's In-Heat Wheat and Weihenstephaner since I introduced it to him - I need to read more about Stouts before I make any attempts and might do a small 2.5 batch to start as I don't drink them that often - last one I had was a Chocolate Stout at Iron Hill Brewery - interesting recipe you got there

 

[peanasky]

I absolutely love the Pacific Jade hops. As for the wheat, I'm going to be starting with a very simple extract recipe with some lemon zest, then fine tuning it for all grain from there. That double chocolate oatmeal stout is wonderful, also check out the "Deception Cream Stout" (link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/deception-cream-stout-141483/) it's a great cream/milk stout.

 

[MonsterBrew]

Per the spices from before...

I actually couldn't find where I had written it down, but I'm pretty sure it was along the following:

Pumpkin Spice Mix:
1/2 tbs cinnamon
1/6 tbs allspice
1/6 tbs nutmeg
1/6 tbs ginger
-Mix with about 1/2 cup of water and boil for 15 - 20 min. Transfer to slender glass of some sort (I used my hydrometer testing tube). Cover and let sit for 24 - 48 hours, allowing the spices to settle, leaving a (very) sticky liquid for you to extract and add to the beer. I believe I added around 1oz of total extract from the mixture.

 

[peanasky]

Monster, so with that spice mix you don't actually put the spices into the boil? I've seen many recipes that use a similar spice base, but just add them to the boil as a 15min addition. Then from their they either leave trub in the kettle or let things drop out in the primary. Any particular reason you go the separate extract route?

 

[CZs]

I absolutely love the Pacific Jade hops. As for the wheat, I'm going to be starting with a very simple extract recipe with some lemon zest, then fine tuning it for all grain from there. That double chocolate oatmeal stout is wonderful, also check out the "Deception Cream Stout" (link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/deception-cream-stout-141483/) it's a great cream/milk stout.

I bring shame upon my house - I should have joined and shot around some ideas with you fellow home brewers sooner - better late than never though - another fantastic recipe!

 

[CZs]

Per the spices from before...

I actually couldn't find where I had written it down, but I'm pretty sure it was along the following:

Pumpkin Spice Mix:
1/2 tbs cinnamon
1/6 tbs allspice
1/6 tbs nutmeg
1/6 tbs ginger
-Mix with about 1/2 cup of water and boil for 15 - 20 min. Transfer to slender glass of some sort (I used my hydrometer testing tube). Cover and let sit for 24 - 48 hours, allowing the spices to settle, leaving a (very) sticky liquid for you to extract and add to the beer. I believe I added around 1oz of total extract from the mixture.

1 oz - wow, I am surprised it isn't more but it sounds like it was nicely concentrated - I think (again, think without reading more) that considering my Pumpkin Candi Sugar was a half pound (8 oz), that my spices steeped in coffee must have been really rounded out and the bite taken out of them by the additional sugar mixed in with it. I'm kind of glad I back doored the spices because it really seems like a "bull in a china shop" sort of way to not screw up adding too much spice to a pumpkin brew - possibly great for a beginner - of course, it doesn't take that much to play around, read and figure out anyways - but - very valuable info - I'll def know to play with very small extract amounts going forward

 

[CZs]

just an update - have recently fermented an Autumn 75 minute IPA, bottled a Brown Ale fermented with pureed raisins and dried plums (mixed in with coffee) an Irish Red Ale brew day yesterday and upcoming, got my hands on a Wyeast Private Collection Bière de Garde - doing an ambrée

Decided to forgo the All Hallows' Evening Saison this year but still have two 750 ml casks of it - saving it for a weekend getaway in October and on Halloween Night