pump advice for $50 Herms Build

[augiedoggy]

That search was useless and returned the same results I've already seen. So, you don't have a link to information on or know at what temperature ABS is no longer food safe?

I've read that thread and the post with the reply from one manufacturer on one specific model that somehow makes you believe that all of the black pumps in this price range are the same. Your posts are full of paranoia and speculation, but no facts.

I especially like the way you selectively believe one claim of "food safe" and reject another. Do you know for a fact that the tan pumps are FDA approved as you claimed in an earlier post? I haven't seen that in eBay listings I've looked at. You say you will be buying one. Will you link to the seller?

If you read it, under Areas of Use it says, "Food Liquid Transfer" and "Hot Wort Transfer Pump for Home Brewing". The "Can Run With Hot Water (212o F)" is under a heading describing mechanical properties. You're trying to imply something that isn't there.

Well since I actually own own of these I have the advantage of actually being able to look up the manufacturer listed on the pump and their website says absolutely NOTHING about this pump being safe for food... its listed as a solar hot water pump only. the manufacturer DOES also state its safe for "acid and alkali resistance, diesel, gasoline , kerosene"

http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/productshow.asp?id=808
Therefore they are NOT FDA approved and its the guy selling them on amazon thats " trying to imply something that isn't there"
He likely copied and pasted the bit about being able to be used for "hot water up to 212 degrees" but made up the" wort transfer for home brewing" and "food liquid transfer" because if the manufacturer had really made those claims they wouldnt state that it was only good for water at 212 degrees and then state separately that its for Wort transfer for home brewing they would just state that its food safe for liquids up to 212 degrees....
And technically the plastic is likely stable at lower temps and would be safe for room temp or wort below 150 degrees or so any higher than that and it would likely leech chemicals into the wort...
Your trying to argue that it is what you want it to be just because some guy peddling them on ebay wants to make a quick buck. Maybe you bought one like me? I dont know but its not MY job to convince YOU of anything... come to your own conclusion. I did find results when I researched it last week which convinced me that its a bad idea to use these pumps... I'm not going to waste my time searching again.

I can direct you to another guy that thought these were great too until he contacted the manufacturer who told him they are in fact no good for food... read this whole thread.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/review-3-3-gpm-pump-only-26-99-amazon-494876/

BTW I already own the tan ones... I've had 2 of them for 10 months..
. every distributor that sells these just about lists them as FDA approved on ebay and amazon. http://www.ebay.com/itm/6M-19-6ft-H...654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234330a856
unlike the black one mentioned above which is sold by many and has been for at least a year but untill the last few months has not been sold advertised at "FDA Approved"... and MOST sellers still dont claim this... I only know of one actually.


there is another thread here thats over 200 pages long... Ive read the whole thing, in a nut shel it states the tan ones are FDA approved and some of the black ones are some arent... since there are at least three different brand names on an identical looking pump its tough to tell besides looking at the label and price and the fact that the food safe ones mostly have brass and stainless threads as well as a coated magnet. Installed.

Notice how this manufactures took pictures of this pump from every angle that DOESNT show the manufactuer but besides the sticker there is a swirling star symbol molded into the pump head that would give it away... the pic iof the diagram he shunk down so it cant be made out is the same as the one in the manufacturers site I linked above.

Also I would like you to find me some CURRENT applications where they use abs plastic for HOT liquid food? Here is a link to some current food grade plastics.
http://fivegallonideas.com/plastic-types-old/

I could not find any stating ABS was considered food grade at hot temps just that it can be safe at non extreme temps like when a kid sucks on a lego...
I do find a lot of discussions on it like this one,
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,164077,168351

 

[AnOldUR]

I've been watching this thread closely looking for some solid information. I also have two of the black pumps. My first was one of the more expensive US Solar Pumps. Not too long ago I bought one of the Amazon type $25 pumps. From a performance standpoint, both have been fine.

So, I sent out a couple of emails. One to US Solar. The other to OXA USA (the company that distributes the Amazon pumps.) I haven't heard back from US Solar, but here's what I got from OXA USA:

Hello,
Thanks for your message. I just confirmed with my supplier.
The item can not be used in that way. Sorry for the confusing. I will revise the information to avoid further inconvenience.
If any other question, please contact me freely.
Best regards.

--- Original message ---
I am interested in purchasing your 12V DC Brushless Solar Hot Water Pump For Solar Panel 3M. You list one of the uses as, "Hot Wort Transfer Pump for Home Brewing." Can you confirm that this pump is food safe for liquids at close to boiling temperatures? I want to be certain before using it in this way. Thank-you.

 

[Falcon3]

I bought this one, and it explicitly states "made of food grade materials."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230918742543?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Looks like the exact same pump.
It is ABS, but from my research, there are different grades of ABS, some of which are "food safe", others of which are not. Personally, I don't see the problem- I'm sure we're exposed to more hazardous chemicals driving by a coal plant or standing on the curb as a bus goes by than by the minute amount of chemicals that might leech out of these pumps.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you see the swirl mark on the top? That's the real manufactures mark... it made by the company I linked above, take a look... It is NOT FDA approved. The people saying so are just lying to sell pumps. That said it likely won't kill you. But like smoking or drinking there is a health risk involved... I had been using mine for 10 months with no issues and am not thrilled with the outcome but the risk is not worth it for me. Especially since I can replace it with a PPE food grade plastic pump for $18.

 

[Munkee915]

I just bought one of the tan pumps today:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DWORE6E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Going to use it to pump hot water from HLT through a 25' HEX coil during mash and then pump sparge water into the MLT for fly sparging (wort will be pumped through my chugger). I read a good majority of the thread on these and this seemed to be the one everyone agreed was safe for hot liquid use. Since I was going to sparge with it I didnt want to take a chance. It was $21 shipped (Prime FTW!) so it actually ended up being a few bucks cheaper than than most of the black pumps I found. I was worried if it would have the flow to pump through the coil but found a video of the GreatBrewEh pump pushing water through 30ft of line and a 50ft IC w/ no problem and another review on a another board where a guy used it on his 45' HERMS coil w/o a problem. Those pumps are rated at 11.5 lph compared to the tan pump at 6 lph at 12v so I ordered the 24v version rated at 10 lph. I'm hoping since I'm using a shorter coil I wont miss that extra 1.5 lph.

One thing I did notice on the GreatBrewEh site was that they say their pumps (which as far as I can tell are the same as the US Solar/Topsflo pumps) are "specially modified to their spec for home brewing" w/ a coated magnet. This tells me that either a. the other ones floating around are not really good for home brewing, or b. GreatBrewEh is lying on their site to sell you the same pump at a huge markup. Either way, didnt feel like risking it.

If you're really anal there a version of the black pump w/ an all stainless head for $90:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GRDNE02/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
but at that point might as well spend a few extra bucks and get the chugger.

 

[augiedoggy]

I just bought one of the tan pumps today:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DWORE6E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Going to use it to pump hot water from HLT through a 25' HEX coil during mash and then pump sparge water into the MLT for fly sparging (wort will be pumped through my chugger). I read a good majority of the thread on these and this seemed to be the one everyone agreed was safe for hot liquid use. Since I was going to sparge with it I didnt want to take a chance. It was $21 shipped (Prime FTW!) so it actually ended up being a few bucks cheaper than than most of the black pumps I found. I was worried if it would have the flow to pump through the coil but found a video of the GreatBrewEh pump pushing water through 30ft of line and a 50ft IC w/ no problem and another review on a another board where a guy used it on his 45' HERMS coil w/o a problem. Those pumps are rated at 11.5 lph compared to the tan pump at 6 lph at 12v so I ordered the 24v version rated at 10 lph. I'm hoping since I'm using a shorter coil I wont miss that extra 1.5 lph.

One thing I did notice on the GreatBrewEh site was that they say their pumps (which as far as I can tell are the same as the US Solar/Topsflo pumps) are "specially modified to their spec for home brewing" w/ a coated magnet. This tells me that either a. the other ones floating around are not really good for home brewing, or b. GreatBrewEh is lying on their site to sell you the same pump at a huge markup. Either way, didnt feel like risking it.

If you're really anal there a version of the black pump w/ an all stainless head for $90:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GRDNE02/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
but at that point might as well spend a few extra bucks and get the chugger.

I have the 12v versions and honestly I seen no real noticable difference in flow between these and the black topsflo style one...

 

[Falcon3]

So I did some more research on these black pumps. Again, I have one of them.

Mine is also a Shenpeng pump. There are two places on their website where they (the original manufacturer) states they are food grade. One is on their pump Comparison page:

http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/about.asp?id=251

Mine is a Model 6017- states Food Grade-
Here is the actual product page http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/productshow.asp?id=809
Note it does NOT state Food Grade- , However, there is a (badly translated Chingrish version) of a news release stating that that company is using an FDA and EU-compliant food-grade verson of ABS plastic to make its food-grade pumps. The news release is here:

http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/newsshow.asp?id=203

Now on the market a lot of miniature brushless DC pump manufacturers offer coffee machine, water dispenser pumps, there are currently two problems :
1, can not provide food-grade materials, or reach the food grade requirements on the structure ! Normally , the magnet exposed, exposure to water , is not up to the requirements of food grade !
2, the temperature can not , under normal circumstances , the degree of the medium 75 , the pump will soon spoil.
According to the market and customer needs , our targeted development of a food-grade , 100 -degree heat resistant pumps !
Our research and development that the high-temperature food-grade pump can solve two problems above it? The answer is : You have fully realized !
The development of miniature deep Peng residue-free , food-grade high-temperature brushless DC pumps can do:
1 , the material is FDA-approved ABS material , more at ease !
2, combined with the characteristics of brushless DC pump performance can be increased by 20% , the structure of the body cavity can be completed free disassembly cleaning ;

NOW- I have no problem with people not trusting these pumps, as all you have to go on is the manufacturer's word that they are food grade. HOWEVER, I ask what is the difference between these and the tan pumps when it comes to FDA compliance?
People that use the tan pumps also only rely on THE MANUFACTURER'S WORD about the food-grade-ness of the pumps. I guess if you truly want nearly zero risk, get a Chugger or March and go about your brewing, but in the world of cheap Chinese pumps, I'm not sure you get any reliability about "food grade" claims from anybody.

 

[AnOldUR]

2, the temperature can not , under normal circumstances , the degree of the medium 75 , the pump will soon spoil.

Could this mean that 75C (167F) is the temperature where normal ABS is no longer stable and food safe?

 

[augiedoggy]

The other issue is when did they start using the food grade abs? I bought my pump 10 months ago...

Just my understanding but the tan pumps do state the pump mechanism is ppe plastic and the magnets ARE coated which indicates they were designed for food grade use unlike these black ones... almost every vender also states they are food grade unlike these black ones...

 

[Spartybrew]

I purchased the same pump from the same vendor as the op. I'm nervous to take the stateside vendor's word for it being food safe now so I'll be doing some research as well once I get it to see what I can find out.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Spartybrew]

Just a follow up on the tan huhushop pump from Amazon: I emailed the seller and was told the pump is not FDA approved and I noticed the verbiage "food safe" has been removed from the item's description. As a result, I will be using this pump to re-circulate ice water through my chiller instead of a HERMS coil.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[AnOldUR]

Just a follow up on the tan huhushop pump from Amazon: I emailed the seller and was told the pump is not FDA approved and I noticed the verbiage "food safe" has been removed from the item's description.

Interesting that now the sellers of the tan pumps are back peddling on FDA and "food safe" claims. Apparently enough people have been questioning them that the company lawyers are throwing up red flags.

 

[poptarts]

So there are no small food safe pumps now?

 

[watermelon83]

http://greatbreweh.com has some. For the price though, unless you need small or 12v...

 

[poptarts]

yea might as well shell out the extra 30 and get the real deal at that point.

 

[Falcon3]

Guys, I must point out that the FDA doesn't approve any pumps- they aren't in that business- what they DO approve is materials that pumps are made out of. This is from another thread, "Cheap, Compact wort pump"

I just was in contact with the FDA and they stated that they have nothing to do with things like water pumps. According to them there is no such thing as "FDA approval" on a water pump.

Chuggers and Marches aren't FDA Approved, either. They are made from FDA-Compliant materials- this is from the Chugger site itself:
"Materials are FDA Food Compliant"

 

[watermelon83]

Nice. Important distinction.

 

[Spartybrew]

Guys, I must point out that the FDA doesn't approve any pumps- they aren't in that business- what they DO approve is materials that pumps are made out of. This is from another thread, "Cheap, Compact wort pump"



Chuggers and Marches aren't FDA Approved, either. They are made from FDA-Compliant materials- this is from the Chugger site itself:
"Materials are FDA Food Compliant"

That's great information, thank you for bringing that to our attention. I'm once again undecided on whether or not this pump is truly "food safe" but I may use it sparingly in a small HERMS application, at least for testing and proof of concept.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[thekraken]

So there are no small food safe pumps now?

This was just brought to my attention: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=as2&tag=hombrefin-20&linkId=VOYFJQWZZJ476BMU

They're still claiming food grade.

 

[augiedoggy]

The plastic housing around the magnet can sometimes warp causing the magnet to seize and become stuck in the housing.
I have been pretty lucky since I have about 30 brew sessions on mine and I have never once disassembled the pumps.

just heads up... I now have switched to the 24v versions and have about 20 brew sessions on these little pumps and I only dissassembled one that had been intermittently sticking since new because I dropped and broke one of the originals and orded it as a replacement... I ended up swapping the guts from the broken pump 12v and the replacement.
the pumps were both very clean though likely due to running pbw through every few brew sessions.

my other 2 original 12v pumps still work fine btw

 

[augiedoggy]

http://greatbreweh.com has some. For the price though, unless you need small or 12v...

those have an exposed magnet with a crappy clearcoat coating they have added that turns white and starts flaking off into the beer after about 8 uses from the pics I saw...
plus the abs plastic pumps are only food safe to 170 degrees (if you ignore the non approved exposed magnets in them)

the tan pps ones are truely made of all food grade materials and have coated magnets encased in pps plastic...
I recomment the 24v versions though for more flow. also because they are not designed to be used as a solar hot water pump like the black ones they dont have the mppt power circuitry which makes the black ones not work well with pwm controllers for controlling speed.

 

[BeezyB]

Yes I know this is a dumb question, but humor me. I would like to purchase the pwm for the 24v tan pump I have- after looking at the image, I'm not sure how this is suppose to be Connected. Does this pwm just dangle inline between the pump and outlet or are people building boxes just to house this little controller?

 

[ThomasPaine]

Yes I know this is a dumb question, but humor me. I would like to purchase the pwm for the 24v tan pump I have- after looking at the image, I'm not sure how this is suppose to be Connected. Does this pwm just dangle inline between the pump and outlet or are people building boxes just to house this little controller?

If you're just manually controlling flow, why not just use a valve?

 

[thekraken]

those have an exposed magnet with a crappy clearcoat coating they have added that turns white and starts flaking off into the beer after about 8 uses from the pics I saw...
plus the abs plastic pumps are only food safe to 170 degrees (if you ignore the non approved exposed magnets in them)

the tan pps ones are truely made of all food grade materials and have coated magnets encased in pps plastic...
I recomment the 24v versions though for more flow. also because they are not designed to be used as a solar hot water pump like the black ones they dont have the mppt power circuitry which makes the black ones not work well with pwm controllers for controlling speed.

augiedoggy, do you have a link to the 24v pump that you recommend?

 

[BeezyB]

If you're just manually controlling flow, why not just use a valve?

Im trying to cut down on the bulkiness of the setup. I already have a cam on the pump and a tee with temp probe, rather not have another valve after the pump so it's easier to work with when I take the pump/ home/ tee off. That and some comments from previous posts that the Pwm is better for pump longevity.

 

[ThomasPaine]

Im trying to cut down on the bulkiness of the setup. I already have a cam on the pump and a tee with temp probe, rather not have another valve after the pump so it's easier to work with when I take the pump/ home/ tee off. That and some comments from previous posts that the Pwm is better for pump longevity.

Fair enough. I use the valve with this pump, but nothing more. I'm not sure about pump longevity. Mine seems to work fine at a trickle, and can move 2 gals per minute at 12 v

 

[BeezyB]

Fair enough. I use the valve with this pump, but nothing more. I'm not sure about pump longevity. Mine seems to work fine at a trickle, and can move 2 gals per minute at 12 v

Interesting- I have 24 v and am only getting 2 gals/ minute. Maybe not using the right power supply? Wanting to slow that down for recirc mash, but would like a bit more for whirpool chilling. I wonder if simply pinching the hose off a bit when clamping to kettle for recirc would do the trick- I suppose that's essentially what ball valve is essentially on the outlet side.

 

[ThomasPaine]

I think the consensus is still out on pump longevity being effected by either control method. I don't know at all, just using what's available and hoping for the best out of this cheap pump. But yeah pinch the hose. I kinda wish I had thought of that to save some $.

 

[augiedoggy]

augiedoggy, do you have a link to the 24v pump that you recommend?

I'm hunting right now in the woods... you want the tan colored 24v ones that look just like the 12v ones many sellers on ebay allow you to select the voltage... the 3.5 amp 12v one with the white box wired to it also looks promising with 5.2 gpm but it's $40...

 

[thekraken]

I'm hunting right now in the woods... you want the tan colored 24v ones that look just like the 12v ones many sellers on ebay allow you to select the voltage... the 3.5 amp 12v one with the white box wired to it also looks promising with 5.2 gpm but it's $40...

Is this it? Says rated to boiling but nothing about food safe
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-New-12V-...hash=item3a9e95a6e6:m:mkRPKnrJE_TYQCWeNJDddRQ

 

[augiedoggy]

Is this it? Says rated to boiling but nothing about food safe
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-New-12V-...hash=item3a9e95a6e6:m:mkRPKnrJE_TYQCWeNJDddRQ

Yes ... they are foodsafe here are some sellers who sell the same pumps advertized as being so. I have bought them from 7 different seller now and they are all the same pump only 2 different shades of color and 12/2and 36V versions are available .. I actually went to the manufacturers websites and they are designed for drinking fountain and soda machine use. they have PPS coated magnets and ceramic shafts. the cheaper black pumps have bare exposed magnets to the wort and therefore are not technically foodgrade. plus they are not made of foograde PPs plastic.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-Quie...084119?hash=item21003f8717:g:sYsAAOSw~gRVwsfp

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-1-2-...588090?hash=item43e64c97ba:g:DqIAAOSwcBhWWVnA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MINI-DC-12V...427478?hash=item23599eb096:g:ZnYAAOSwiLdWA514


http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Qualit...950522?hash=item3aa8413b7a:g:2goAAOSweW5VOMQ0

and so on...