Predicted pH is different between Brunwater and other Spreadsheets

[TeamAshBrewing]

Hello,

I am getting different predicted Mash pH amounts using Brunwater, EZWater, and Mash Made Easy. I am wondering if I am entering data incorrect or something else. To get to a 5.4pH using Lactic Acid, Brunwater recommends adding 1.5mL to the mash water + .4mL sparge water.
Both EZWater (3.5mL) and Mash Made Easy (3.38mL) recommend twice the amounts to the mash water alone. The mash water profile is off too, but not a lot.

I will be brewing a German Pilsner using the following data:
5.5gal Total Batch Volume
100% RO Water
3.75gal Mash Water
5.77gal Sparge Water
9.625 lbs Pilsner Malt 1.7L (Weyerman)

Target Water Profile
59 calcium
8 mg
89 sulfate
63 chloride

Salt Additions Mash + Sparge = Total
Gypsum .75 + 1.2= 1.95gr
CaCl2 1.31 + 2.0 = 3.31gr
Epsom 1.13 + 1.7 = 2.83gr

Thanks for the help.

Chris

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In a very quick check, both 'Brewer's Friend' (an online program) and the 'MpH' spreadsheet suggest the addition of roughly 3.6 mL of 88% lactic acid to the strike water. So as to software it appears to stack up as 4 in general agreement against 1 outlier.

Weyermann Pilsner is generally quite basic with respect to a target pH of 5.4. Often well more so in that regard than the typical American sourced 2-row base malt.

 

[TeamAshBrewing]

In a quick check, both 'Brewer's Friend' (an online program) and the 'MpH' spreadsheet suggest the addition of roughly 3.6 mL of 88% lactic acid to the strike water. So as to software it stacks up as 4 in general agreement against 1 outlier.

Thanks for your reply. Yes agreed. I also used Brewers Friend, along with your spreadsheet and Palmers. They all came up with around the same amounts. ~3.6mL seems about right, and 1.9mL seems low. Unfortunately I do not have a pH meter to check.

 

[TeamAshBrewing]

Below are my Brunwater screenshots.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With 'Mash Made Easy' there are two methods by which to alter the "basic with respect to your desired mash pH target" characteristics for a 3.0 or lower Lovibond color "base" malt. You can either dial in the "3L or lighter base malt type" drop down selector in the lower right corner of the spreadsheet to select a base malt "type" which better reflects the actual DI_Mash pH characteristics of your particular batch of base malt, or you can simply enter the malts actual measured DI-Mash pH value into the 'DI mash pH manual override" column.

The "default" for Weyermann Pilsner malt would be to chose "European Pilsner" within the drop down box. You are always free to make any of the other 3L or lower base malt type selections however.

 

[probablynotnick]

With 'Mash Made Easy' there are two methods by which to alter the "basic with respect to your desired mash pH target" characteristics for a 3.0 or lower Lovibond color "base" malt. You can either dial in the "3L or lighter base malt type" drop down selector in the lower right corner of the spreadsheet to select a base malt "type" which better reflects the actual DI_Mash pH characteristics of your particular batch of base malt, or you can simply enter the malts actual measured DI-Mash pH value into the 'DI mash pH manual override" column.

The "default" for Weyermann Pilsner malt would be to chose "European Pilsner" within the drop down box. You are always free to make any of the other 3L or lower base malt type selections however.

Curious as to what seems to cause the issue with the exceptionally light malts? Are they less predictable and therefore require more individual adjustment?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Curious as to what seems to cause the issue with the exceptionally light malts? Are they less predictable and therefore require more individual adjustment?

To some extent the DI_mash pH of base malt seems to be related to where in the world the barley is being grown (or more specifically related to the soil in which it is being grown), as well as to the variety being grown. Base malt DI_mash pH is also apparently seasonal, as it can change somewhat from year to year. There was a time when Rahr 2L 2-row malt reportedly had a DI_mash pH of something on the order of 5.55. This would represent the opposite extreme.

 

[probablynotnick]

To some extent the DI_mash pH of base malt seems to be related to where in the world the barley is being grown (or more specifically related to the soil in which it is being grown), as well as to the variety being grown. Base malt DI_mash pH is also apparently seasonal, as it can change somewhat from year to year. There was a time when Rahr 2L 2-row malt reportedly had a DI_mash pH of something on the order of 5.55. This would represent the opposite extreme.

Interesting. So we should be clarifying these numbers with the maltster every so often to remain up to date.

Thanks, Silver

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With the potential extremes of low colored base malts DI_pH's being on the order of 0.5 or 0.6 pH (from about 5.5 to perhaps as high as 6.1 on rare occasions), and with such malt making up the bulk of the grist for most recipes, it is hard to imagine that there are those among us who truly believe that any mash pH predicting software can hit the mark within a measured 0.1 pH units on a routine basis.

It is certainly not a simple matter of determining solely the Lovibond color and then correlating said color directly to DI_mash pH and from there to malt acidity. Since the bulk of many to most recipes is built upon such base malts, a pH predicting software program should allow for a great degree of end user flexibility with regard to dialing in this class of malts.

If such flexibility is not available, a kludge would be to manipulate the color in an attempt to thereby manipulate the pH/acidity characteristics to some degree. I.E., to apply a fake color value to the malt in order to trick the software into conformance with reality.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I should have mentioned that variability in kilning methods and profiles would also somewhat impact a base malts potential DI_mash pH range.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Interesting. So we should be clarifying these numbers with the maltster every so often to remain up to date.

Thanks, Silver

Some maltsters will post somewhat useful DI_mash pH ranges within their specs. Some will comply with your inquiry. Some may or may not comply, depending upon who you are, who you work for, or who you reach within the company. Others will speak only in vague generalities. And others will not comply. This has been my experience.

 

[thehaze]

There are so many factory playing in determing the actual pH. All those spreadsheets try to aproximate it and not nail on the head.

I use Bru'nWater, and for me the predicted addition of acid ( I use Phosphoric 75% ) is half of what I actually need. So now I know that if the sheet tells me 1 ml, I usually add 2 ml or close to and I hit the wanted pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The likelihood of software predicting mash pH correctly may actually improve as the number and variability of the malts in the grist are increased, in a sort of chaos theory fashion. If the software guesses high on some malts and low on others with respect to their actual individual DI_pH/acidity values, it may well prove to be the case that some to all of the inherent errors cancel and a more correct pH prediction is the outcome of this. The hardest case to get right may well be for single malt recipes. But some potential always exists for the individual errors to add instead of cancel each other....

 

[couchsending]

There are so many factory playing in determing the actual pH. All those spreadsheets try to aproximate it and not nail on the head.

I use Bru'nWater, and for me the predicted addition of acid ( I use Phosphoric 75% ) is half of what I actually need. So now I know that if the sheet tells me 1 ml, I usually add 2 ml or close to and I hit the wanted pH.

I would second this.. I normally need almost twice as much... MW102 with brand new probe. Hanna calibration solution, calibrated every time. RO from three different places as well as my own.

 

[thehaze]

I would second this.. I normally need almost twice as much... MW102 with brand new probe. Hanna calibration solution, calibrated every time. RO from three different places as well as my own.

This is by no means a bad thing. I mean I have a pH meter, which I calibrate every brew day with fresh calibration solution and this is due to wanting to have a bit more control over things. I brewed good beer without it, but now I want to brew better beer. And after 5 batches, I knew that whatever the reasons, I needed almost twice the acid malt as Bru'nWater predicts. And that's OK for me, as the pH really hits the numbers I want.

Regarding the almost double amount of acid needed: there can be so many things...I usually use English malts, from either Crisp, Simpsons, Warminster. It is possible that these malts need a bit more acid. I know that Simpsons has something called Aromatic, which is not a Crystal malt, but a higher kilned base malt ( 25 Lovibond ) and it can be used up to 50%. It also much more acidic than the rest of their malts: https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/our-malts/aromatic-malt/

I would be very interested in using this malt in light coloured beers, as a source of colour, malt presence and pH regulator and see how it works. Between 5 and 25% would be a good start.

 

[mabrungard]

Regarding the almost double amount of acid needed: there can be so many things...I usually use English malts, from either Crisp, Simpsons, Warminster.

That is interesting. I've seen your other posts on that issue and I have to wonder if your acid really has the strength its labeled with.

If you happen to have an alkaline tap water (most do), then you could use the Sparge Acidification sheet in Bru'n Water to back-calculate the acid strength when the water's alkalinity is known. Either a recent water test or an aquarium alkalinity test kit are useful for determining the alkalinity.

This wouldn't be the first time that either an acid was mis-labeled (watered down) or the water supply's alkalinity changed from what the brewer thought it was.

 

[ajdelange]

There are so many factory playing in determing the actual pH. All those spreadsheets try to aproximate it and not nail on the head.

The main factor, IMO, is that all of them (of which I am aware) assume that that the malt's titration curve is linear and only one of them (again AFAIK) recognizes that the slope of the assumed linear "curve" depends on the malt. This works fairly well for base malts if the program allows you to put in the malt's DI mash pH as the slopes are reasonably similar and the DI mash pH's are pretty close to the target mash pH's. Where it falls apart is with the colored malts where the excursion from DI mash pH to target (desired) mash pH is great enough that the non linear terms become significant.

 

[thehaze]

That is interesting. I've seen your other posts on that issue and I have to wonder if your acid really has the strength its labeled with.

If you happen to have an alkaline tap water (most do), then you could use the Sparge Acidification sheet in Bru'n Water to back-calculate the acid strength when the water's alkalinity is known. Either a recent water test or an aquarium alkalinity test kit are useful for determining the alkalinity.

This wouldn't be the first time that either an acid was mis-labeled (watered down) or the water supply's alkalinity changed from what the brewer thought it was.

This exact thought also crossed my mind. I use this acid from this very belgian shop: https://www.homebrewshop.be/en/phosphoric-acid-75-e338-1-litre.html

I calibrate my pH meter ( which is only 2-3 months old) every brew day, I check the pH of the bottled water I use and I am careful in measuring and weighing all mineral salts and acid dosage.

Another thought is maybe the bottled water I use ( although expensive and among the best available here ), is not quite as good as they say, but the its pH its spot on and the resulting beer - with the intended profile - are good/very good.

But I will make sure to further take as many notes and try to " use the Sparge Acidification sheet in Bru'n Water to back-calculate the acid strength when the water's alkalinity is known. Either a recent water test or an aquarium alkalinity test kit are useful for determining the alkalinity. "

 

[mabrungard]

I check the pH of the bottled water I use and I am careful in measuring and weighing all mineral salts and acid dosage.

Another thought is maybe the bottled water I use ( although expensive and among the best available here ), is not quite as good as they say, but the its pH its spot on and the resulting beer - with the intended profile - are good/very good.

Be aware that the pH of your water source(s) is not an indicator of its performance in brewing. Knowing the water's mineral content and alkalinity, are the most important elements in predicting its suitability and performance in brewing.

 

[TeamAshBrewing]

Thank you all for the very helpful info. I ended up using 3.6mL of lactic acid, but since I do not have a pH meter, I will have to wait a few weeks to see how it tastes. I have the supporters version of Brunwater, but also cross check with Mash Made Easy. This is the first time in 20+ batches where the numbers were significantly off. That being said, all of those batches had some form of crystal and/or roasted malt.
A pH meter is next on my list to purchase.

Thanks again,

Chris