This is one of those :smack: moments. I've eaten several lacto-acid fermented foodstuffs that obviously don't contain lactose, like sauerkraut and authentic pickled cucumbers...
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This is one of those :smack: moments. I've eaten several lacto-acid fermented foodstuffs that obviously don't contain lactose, like sauerkraut and authentic pickled cucumbers...
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Dry hopped for 3 days, I gather that infection from hops at this stage is unlikely. Fermentation had finished before dry hopping. notice thin film near/on hops bag with small circular growths. Infection? I was going to bottle this today. I think growth has happened in last 24 hours.
Thanks in advance for your help.
I get a film and large bubbles like that from brettanomyces more often than not. Looks like you have something going on in there.
derbedeu
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Hy guys,
I'm in a bit of a trouble here, where I brew. Not such an active brewer, or poster, so please excuse me for not browsing the entire thread for similar problems (although I have read a lot of posts).
I am brewing (extract) since last summer, until 2 months with no problems. Since the weather got warmer, I had to work "against" the elements, moving my fermentation buckets in my basement (steady 19-20 degrees Celsius).
As I said, while brewing/fermenting above ground, in my apartment, produced no surprises - just good beers - something annoying happened with my last 2 batches.
First one, an ordinary ale, seemed to ferment without bubbling and, by the time fermentation was over a funny smell developed. When I racked it to secondary (I always do this for sedimentation purposes), I realized a pellicle was forming on top of the beer, but the beer smelled/tasted fine. However, after a couple more weeks in the secondary, the pellicle looked really like not belonging there, and the beer started to smell weird and taste even weirder. Here is how it looked, I guess this is nothing that you have not seen so far.
Anyway, being sort of stubborn, I decided to bottle. Big mistake, as I had to throw it all away after a few days and then clean&sanitize all the bottles.
In the meantime, I brewed an AIPA, that I kept in the basement for 3 weeks in the primary. After 3 weeks, I checked the gravity and it looked fine, so I decided to rack to secondary and dry-hop. Unfortunately, after 1 week in secondary, the beer looks like it is getting the same pellicle as the previous one
, like you can see in the picture.
I have absolutely no idea what this might be; I consider bringing a sample to a lab to have it analyzed. However, should I be concerned, due to the basement environment, of an airborne wild fungus/yeast? The place is recently renovated and looks quite crisp, but with all these small creatures you will never know...
Thank you for your time reading this.
Cheers!
I'm in a bit of a trouble here, where I brew. Not such an active brewer, or poster, so please excuse me for not browsing the entire thread for similar problems (although I have read a lot of posts).
I am brewing (extract) since last summer, until 2 months with no problems. Since the weather got warmer, I had to work "against" the elements, moving my fermentation buckets in my basement (steady 19-20 degrees Celsius).
As I said, while brewing/fermenting above ground, in my apartment, produced no surprises - just good beers - something annoying happened with my last 2 batches.
First one, an ordinary ale, seemed to ferment without bubbling and, by the time fermentation was over a funny smell developed. When I racked it to secondary (I always do this for sedimentation purposes), I realized a pellicle was forming on top of the beer, but the beer smelled/tasted fine. However, after a couple more weeks in the secondary, the pellicle looked really like not belonging there, and the beer started to smell weird and taste even weirder. Here is how it looked, I guess this is nothing that you have not seen so far.
Anyway, being sort of stubborn, I decided to bottle. Big mistake, as I had to throw it all away after a few days and then clean&sanitize all the bottles.
In the meantime, I brewed an AIPA, that I kept in the basement for 3 weeks in the primary. After 3 weeks, I checked the gravity and it looked fine, so I decided to rack to secondary and dry-hop. Unfortunately, after 1 week in secondary, the beer looks like it is getting the same pellicle as the previous one
, like you can see in the picture.I have absolutely no idea what this might be; I consider bringing a sample to a lab to have it analyzed. However, should I be concerned, due to the basement environment, of an airborne wild fungus/yeast? The place is recently renovated and looks quite crisp, but with all these small creatures you will never know...
Thank you for your time reading this.
Cheers!
That's definitely an infection. I'd replace any tubing used to rack or bottle with. Then bleach bomb the fermenters & bottling bucket that came in contact with it. Anything that touches the beer on the cold side of the process is suspect at this point. Think back on each batch...did you clean & rinse everything well first? Did you sanitize everything right before use? Spigots as well?
HomeDrewBrew
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Are you racking to secondary on every batch??
You dont have to secondary at all even when dry hopping.
I think secondary is necessary in lagers.
You dont have to secondary at all even when dry hopping.
I think secondary is necessary in lagers.
Hy guys,
I'm in a bit of a trouble here, where I brew. Not such an active brewer, or poster, so please excuse me for not browsing the entire thread for similar problems (although I have read a lot of posts).
I am brewing (extract) since last summer, until 2 months with no problems. Since the weather got warmer, I had to work "against" the elements, moving my fermentation buckets in my basement (steady 19-20 degrees Celsius).
As I said, while brewing/fermenting above ground, in my apartment, produced no surprises - just good beers - something annoying happened with my last 2 batches.
First one, an ordinary ale, seemed to ferment without bubbling and, by the time fermentation was over a funny smell developed. When I racked it to secondary (I always do this for sedimentation purposes), I realized a pellicle was forming on top of the beer, but the beer smelled/tasted fine. However, after a couple more weeks in the secondary, the pellicle looked really like not belonging there, and the beer started to smell weird and taste even weirder. Here is how it looked, I guess this is nothing that you have not seen so far.
Anyway, being sort of stubborn, I decided to bottle. Big mistake, as I had to throw it all away after a few days and then clean&sanitize all the bottles.
In the meantime, I brewed an AIPA, that I kept in the basement for 3 weeks in the primary. After 3 weeks, I checked the gravity and it looked fine, so I decided to rack to secondary and dry-hop. Unfortunately, after 1 week in secondary, the beer looks like it is getting the same pellicle as the previous one
I have absolutely no idea what this might be; I consider bringing a sample to a lab to have it analyzed. However, should I be concerned, due to the basement environment, of an airborne wild fungus/yeast? The place is recently renovated and looks quite crisp, but with all these small creatures you will never know...
Thank you for your time reading this.
Cheers!
I'd suggest to start reading at least quite a few of the suggestions in this thread, it helps in identifying sources of infection, eradicating them, and most importantly, preventing them. You definitely have infected batches, and they always trace back to sanitation and process, unless intentionally induced (when making funky/sour ales).
As already mentioned, racking to secondaries is generally not needed, and advised against since it's a major source of picking up infections and cause of other trouble. Also buckets as secondaries are a positive no-no. Too much headspace and the rim/lid area is a weak spot too. Handling beer in general should be avoided as much as possible until ready to package.
There maybe an infection in your racking cane, tubing or any other equipment used during the cold side of the process (after the boil).
What kind of sanitizer do you use? And how do you use it?
derbedeu
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Hi guys, thank you for your swift replies. As I said, I prefer secondary just for more sedimentation - I like taking the beer off the trub no later than 3 weeks in the primary.
I keep a high level of cleaning and sanitation - it is why I suspect something alien in there. I always rinse in hot water, wash with fragrance free dishwashing soap and, before using, I soak all my equipment in Chemipro Oxi. Plus, I always spray everything with sanitizer before touching the beer.
I agree on the the headspace issue in secondary, though I always try to brew a bucketful of beer.
But regardless of all these facts, what does the infection look like? Might it be something like wild yeast, basement mold, some fungus? I am asking because I intend to create a bigger setup, and I do not want to ruin 100l a time because of some unseen sugar predator.
I keep a high level of cleaning and sanitation - it is why I suspect something alien in there. I always rinse in hot water, wash with fragrance free dishwashing soap and, before using, I soak all my equipment in Chemipro Oxi. Plus, I always spray everything with sanitizer before touching the beer.
I agree on the the headspace issue in secondary, though I always try to brew a bucketful of beer.
But regardless of all these facts, what does the infection look like? Might it be something like wild yeast, basement mold, some fungus? I am asking because I intend to create a bigger setup, and I do not want to ruin 100l a time because of some unseen sugar predator.
daggers_nz
Well-Known Member
that's an entire debate altogether. The issue here is that he/she is using the same equipment for the secondary that is harboring some serious infections arleady.
best bet is to ditch EVERYTHING plastic that came into contact with those beers, even your fementers unfortunately. I had an infection that followed me around for 5 brews after bleaching everything mutliple times. In the end I just cleaned house and threw everything except for my bottles. It sucks but getting infections is even more sucks.
Too much head space in secondary will do it too. For example, 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy or better bottle. I only secondary for oaking or adding fruit. That way, the Co2 blanket stays in place. I've had beers in primary 5 weeks or a bit more with no ill effects.
As said already, and not just in this thread, probably a 1000 others, you can get clear beer straight off the trub/yeast layer. Cold crashing after fermentation is complete speeds that up. The whole racking after 3 weeks or yeast autolysis sets in is a myth. It's fine to let it sit on yeast for as long as 2-4 months, with the volumes homebrewers use. In 50hl tanks things are different.
What brand sanitizer are you using? Some products sold are not sanitizers as they claim to be. And again, process is critical too.
10 to 1, your process to secondary introduced the infection. You cannot brew a bucketful of beer. You need headspace in the (primary) fermentor. Then racking to a secondary bucket, will yield less beer.
From the pellicle, it looks like lactobacillus. But there maybe other bugs too. It's not mold, at least so far. Do you mill or handle grain or flour in your fermentation or racking area? Grain is covered with lacto.
There can be some air sucking back through the lid's rim area when things cool down. Since that rim area isn't sanitized anymore, a few bugs may get in. But they meet a hostile environment, full of alcohol, hops, and an active yeast colony, so it won't be easy to get a foothold. Now air (headspace) can help propagate that bug.
If you want to ramp up to larger volumes, you need to get a handle on better sanitation and racking techniques. The penalty on not doing so is more severe. You can get over dumping a 5 gal batch once in a while, as a lesson learned. Yet, no-one wants to make a habit out of that either.
Possibly infected equipment, but I put my dime on improper cleaning and sanitation techniques, since that's where it boils down to.
No need to ditch your fermentors unless they are scratched. Tubing, yeah makes sense, it's cheap. But if improper cleaning and sanitation methods are used he'll be back here after a few batches.
Bleach bombing and putting equipment out in the bright sun for a couple days help eradicate bacteria and (wild) yeasts.
Unless one wants to harvest clean yeast, even fruit can go into a primary.
It's all about sanitation, really. I'm willing to bet he's not using the sanitizers we use, namely Starsan, IO Star, or Iodophor.
daggers_nz
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what about dry hops? never done it myself, always used a glass carboy but I'd be open to being convinced otherwise
Never had issues dry hopping in primary.
This was found in one of the beer bottles i gave to people. He states he opened poured his beer drank it and found it in the bottle after he had cleaned it. I made a stout with extract. What is it? Is this possible. I washed then sanitized in my dishwasher.
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what about dry hops? never done it myself, always used a glass carboy but I'd be open to being convinced otherwise
Sure you can dry hop in a primary, most effective after cold crashing, to first drop all the yeast out. Simply suspend the hops in a muslin bag with a small weight in it, like glass marbles or a spare stainless fitting. The key is, racking to another vessel can introduce unwanted bugs, so best to avoid the whole issue.
True but I would come back up to 60 or 70 for the dry hop period. The aromas don't transfer as well in cold liquid. I frequently rack to keg, suspend muslin bag, keep at room temperature for 5 to 10 days, then just put into kegerator. I have left the dry hops in the keg for the entire serving period. Over several weeks to months and no grassy taste at all in fact the aroma is amazingly powerful.
Looks to me like a grain of barley. Could be a pupa case of some sort of insect, but whatever it is, your buddy is fine.
Depending on how he cleaned it it could have gotten in there during cleaning.
Absolutely, the hop oils dissolve/diffuse much better in warmer beer than ice cold. The idea of cold crashing before dry hopping is to drop yeast out of suspension so it won't take precious hop oils with it when crashing later. Not sure if that's been proven, though. Lots of myths hanging around, someone said it or you read it somewhere, others repeat, and it becomes truth suddenly.
I prefer to dry hop in kegs too, same way you do, and leave the bag in there, hanging from a thin wire, until cleaning day. For those without kegs, using the fermentor is the only way.
I've been using a thin but pretty tightly woven muslin cloth (fabric store), made into bags (pouches), since the fine mesh nylon "hop bags" let too much pellet dust through, particularly when agitating to speed up the extraction process and you'd end up with a ton of suspended particulate that has a nasty bitter taste and doesn't settle quickly or well. The muslin fibers swell up a bit and form a great barrier for the solids but let the beer and aromatic oils through. Decent amount of agitation is needed though, IMO.
Rauchbeer or Roachbeer?
Looks like a bug to me. However it's really small, given the size of the Q-tip it's on. Could have been stuck in one of the bottles. One more reason to always use a bottle brush when cleaning bottles. A dishwasher cannot rinse bottles out well because of the thin necks, like a jet bottle washer does.
Yaknow, with the size reference if it is a pupal case it probably is a fruit fly.
mrgrimm101
Well-Known Member
I usually cold crash after dry hopping for a couple days before bottling. This way all the hop particles fall out of suspension and I can bottle without transferring any of the hop particles. The hop aroma is still great in the bottles, but I have noticed that it fades very quickly.
I would be hesitant to cold crash BEFORE dry hopping..for me the point of cold crash is to drop everything out of suspension so it's easier/clearer when it goes into bottles.
Sounds like the ones we used to clean tape deck rollers, etc with?...
I hate this to be my first post but so far you have answered all my questions without me having to ask them myself. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge.
This is my 4th brew. It's supposed to be an APA and is 9 days into primary right now.
I took two readings so far and was about to dry hop it soon. Three days ago it was at 1.025 (from 1.050) and was very promising. no off smell or bad taste at all. The yeast build up on the bottom of my fermenter is also pretty impressive, more than i ever had before.
Today I taped a sample and took another reading (1.019) and suddenly it tasted quite sour. After peeking under the lid i noticed these white/dry looking dots on top of the krausen. What do you guys think? Probably lacto?
Well it's nothing compared to some of the furry beasts in this thread but it's just day 9 .. might still 'grow up'.
Any advice? Scoop it off? leave it? Ditch it?
Judging by the rest of this thread you'll probably tell me to keep it going, keg it and try it. am I right with that?
Looks like normal saison yeast rafts to me
I think the whole point of cold crashing before dry hopping is to remove most suspended particulate (i.e., yeast) so the hop oils can't attach to them and drop out with cold crashing later.
After dry hopping another cold crash can be done, but is usually not needed when tightly woven hop sacks or leaf hops are used. Agitation really helps to extract the hop oils and disperse it through the beer. Needless to say, the bags should be roomy so beer can flow freely around the hop fiber.
The commercially available tight-mesh polyester (long and narrow) hop sacks look really good for that purpose, and maybe be fine without or with very careful and slow agitation, submerged in a bucket or carboy.
But when agitating vigorously (shaking or rolling a keg) enough fine hop dust makes it out of those and takes a long time to settle, even in a cold keezer. Then the first few pints (as many as 6) are undrinkable and wasted, and each time the keg is moved, the bit of stuff that's left behind re-suspends. Hence the call for tighter muslin bags.
kombat
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???
Why would a little hop haze make a beer "undrinkable and wasted?" Some hop haze is actually to style for IPAs.
Are you actually dumping several glasses of IPA because they're TOO hoppy?
Hop haze comes from the lupulins that give aroma, flavor & bittering. He's referring to the fine poofy stuff from hop pellets that get into the beer from too aggressively agitating it with the dry hop sacks in it.
I know we're way off topic, no infections... but just as much of a nuisance.
Hell no, there is no such thing as too hoppy! It's the load of hop dust floating in the glass from agitated dry hopping, making it pretty much undrinkable. Very "chewy" and unpleasant sharp bitterness, like sucking on hop pellets.
On the first pull, I've let the glass sit for a few hours and 1/4-1/2" of nice green hop debris settled out. It took 6 pints to get a clear enough beer, still some floaties in it. I ended up racking it into another keg. Lesson learned, tighter-mesh hop bags (muslin) needed. No problem since.
Exactly! Maybe been there yourself?
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Yeah. I don't keg...yet...but I'm seeing that a tighter mesh is definitely needed for hop & grain sacks. Instead of course mesh, medium mesh seems like it'd definitely be an improvement?
daggers_nz
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last time I dry hopped I didn't use a bag, just chucked those badboys in (secondary, glass) and set the temp to 13C - over the course of about 5 days the hop dust and mess dropped to the bottom of the carboy and didn't end up in the bottles
Seems like I've got my first infection ever on my hands.
This just as I was going to pitch brett into the secondary of this batch.
Is it possible to still pitch brett in this or should this just go straight in the drain?
It smells of overripe apples at the moment. It's primary fermented with WLP Champagne Yeast and has quite a bit of Nelson Sauvin in it so I don't think either of those things should contribute with that apple smell really. Transferred it to secondary a week ago and then it definitely did not have this smell.
Any ideas? Thanks!
This just as I was going to pitch brett into the secondary of this batch.
Is it possible to still pitch brett in this or should this just go straight in the drain?
It smells of overripe apples at the moment. It's primary fermented with WLP Champagne Yeast and has quite a bit of Nelson Sauvin in it so I don't think either of those things should contribute with that apple smell really. Transferred it to secondary a week ago and then it definitely did not have this smell.
Any ideas? Thanks!
daggers_nz
Well-Known Member
that looks fine to me
I hope you're right! I've never really had any of my beers look like that in the secondary before, but then I have never used WLP715 before.
I forgot to mention in the earlier post that the airlock had been quiet for about a week but started bubbling again this morning as well.
I forgot to mention in the earlier post that the airlock had been quiet for about a week but started bubbling again this morning as well.
daggers_nz
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now that I look at it again sober, it does appear some of the bubbles have tentacles, which is when I'd be worried. sorry if I led you astray
lowtones84
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A little suspect, but hard to tell at that stage to be honest. That secondary looks like it has a lot of headspace, and if your sanitation wasn't perfect it could be very easy for something to take hold.
derbedeu
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Seems like I've got my first infection ever on my hands.
This just as I was going to pitch brett into the secondary of this batch.
Is it possible to still pitch brett in this or should this just go straight in the drain?
It smells of overripe apples at the moment. It's primary fermented with WLP Champagne Yeast and has quite a bit of Nelson Sauvin in it so I don't think either of those things should contribute with that apple smell really. Transferred it to secondary a week ago and then it definitely did not have this smell.
Any ideas? Thanks!
Hey mate,
Just a quick question: are you sure you transferred when fermentation was off? I'm asking because it happened to me too, and I was scared of an infection. Chilling it a bit (below 20C/68F) allowed me to relax though.
Check my post a few days back. While definitely the first pic was an infection that affected the beer, the second one was something that I am still suspicious of, but the beer tastes fine. Moreover, I skimmed the whole pellicle with a metallic coffee strainer, and it didn't come back after days of waiting. So right now I am preparing to bottle.
Cheers!
I can see the stringiness in this pic. Not too bad atm though...
Thanks for the replies everyone!
I'm fairly certain that the fermentation was off when I transferred it, but perhaps the yeast was roused and kicked off fermentation again or something, but I suspect this is infected.
I followed the same procedure that I usually do regarding sanitation, cleaning with PBW and desinfecting everything that is in contact with the wort/beer with Starsan, but of course that is not a guarantee.
I decided to pitch some brett in it and I will let it sit for a couple of months or so just to see what happens.
I'm fairly certain that the fermentation was off when I transferred it, but perhaps the yeast was roused and kicked off fermentation again or something, but I suspect this is infected.
I followed the same procedure that I usually do regarding sanitation, cleaning with PBW and desinfecting everything that is in contact with the wort/beer with Starsan, but of course that is not a guarantee.
I decided to pitch some brett in it and I will let it sit for a couple of months or so just to see what happens.
For what it's worth, here's my latest experience with this sort of thing; When I finished fermenting my dry stout for my latest whiskely ale, I cleaned & sanitized my BB secondary to transfer the ale onto some American white oak chips soaked in Beam's Black (8 year old bourbon).
Now, having had problems with infections before, I decided to boil the muslin hop socks for at least 10 minutes first. Then drained & soaked them in Starsan a for a couple minutes. Then split the bourbon-soaked oak chips between the two of them after pouring the bourbon through one of them into the 6 gallon (supposedly) Better Bottle. I have to split them between two hop sacks to get them past the narrow neck. Got'em in there, sanitized the air-locked plug & called it good.
7 days later, when it was bottling day, I saw some white film on top of the beer. Dammit, I thought, as I was all ready to begin racking into the bottling bucket. I was sure the added step of boiling the hop socks before sanitizing would do the trick. No such luck! But, as I was using my auto siphon to rack into the bottling bucket, I noticed that the white film was being drawn onto the sides of the BB as the fluid level decreased. Clear, untainted-appearing beer in the bucket. It's carbing & conditioning in the bottles now. No bottle bombs or weird films so far.
So it is my considered opinion that there was definitely some air-born nasties in the air column inside the better bottle that causes the infection. 5 gallons of the dry stout went into the BB, coming up just to the base of the slanted part going to the neck. So I'm thinking this Better Bottle is more like 5 1/2 gallons? At any rate, I'm sure it was some nasties in the airspace, since everything else, including racking tubes & the like were scrubbed inside & out & sanitized. I hope this helps you narrow it down, since this seems to be the case in my experiences.
Now, having had problems with infections before, I decided to boil the muslin hop socks for at least 10 minutes first. Then drained & soaked them in Starsan a for a couple minutes. Then split the bourbon-soaked oak chips between the two of them after pouring the bourbon through one of them into the 6 gallon (supposedly) Better Bottle. I have to split them between two hop sacks to get them past the narrow neck. Got'em in there, sanitized the air-locked plug & called it good.
7 days later, when it was bottling day, I saw some white film on top of the beer. Dammit, I thought, as I was all ready to begin racking into the bottling bucket. I was sure the added step of boiling the hop socks before sanitizing would do the trick. No such luck! But, as I was using my auto siphon to rack into the bottling bucket, I noticed that the white film was being drawn onto the sides of the BB as the fluid level decreased. Clear, untainted-appearing beer in the bucket. It's carbing & conditioning in the bottles now. No bottle bombs or weird films so far.
So it is my considered opinion that there was definitely some air-born nasties in the air column inside the better bottle that causes the infection. 5 gallons of the dry stout went into the BB, coming up just to the base of the slanted part going to the neck. So I'm thinking this Better Bottle is more like 5 1/2 gallons? At any rate, I'm sure it was some nasties in the airspace, since everything else, including racking tubes & the like were scrubbed inside & out & sanitized. I hope this helps you narrow it down, since this seems to be the case in my experiences.
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If it's still sitting in that bucket for secondary, the brett is likely to start throwing some acetic acid on you due to the oxygen in the headspace. You might want to get it transferred to a carboy as soon as possible. Time heals many things, but not acetic acid.
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