Post-Boil Hot Side Aeration - B.S.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mthelm85

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
178
Reaction score
3
Location
Yakima
There are quite a few threads on here that discuss HSA and whether or not it is an issue on the home-brew scale. I just wanted to put this out there for all of those who are worried about post-boil HSA.

I take great care to not splash my wort too much pre-boil so I can't speak about pre-boil HSA because I've never introduced much air into my wort pre-boil. I can say this, however: I think post-boil HSA is B.S. and if you are worried about it you are wasting your time.

When I made my last brew, a Northern English Brown Ale, I had somewhere important to be on brew day and, because of an airlock that I accidentally smashed in the morning as well as a couple of other unforeseen events, I got behind by about an hour and half. I was only able to cool my wort down to about 95 degrees before starting the aeration process.

I considered not aerating at all due to the temperature being above the suggested 80 degree threshold, but I decided to gamble and do it anyways. I aerate my wort by siphoning it, one half gallon at a time, into a sanitized milk jug and then shaking the living daylights out of it for 10 seconds or so, and then pouring it through a funnel into my carboy. Each half-gallon portion ends up with a thick, foamy head due to the vigorous shaking. By the time I had aerated all 5 gallons, the wort was down to about 76 degrees, at which point I pitched the yeast, popped in my airlock, taped my temperature probe to the side, stuck it in my fermentation freezer and left for my appointment.

Long story short, I just cracked open the first bottle and, after two weeks in the bottle, it is an excellent English Brown Ale that I don't mind saying, arrogantly, beats the living sh%# out of Newcastle and has no off-flavors whatsoever.

Maybe after a couple of months some off-flavors will show up but I doubt it (I'll keep you updated). I listened to a couple of Basic Brewing podcasts where some home brewers in Austin tried to oxidize their beer and the final result of the taste test was that there was no significant difference in flavor from the beer that had been hot-side aerated post-boil to the beer that had not been hot-side aerated at all. They did mention that the beer that had been hot-side aerated post-boil had a bit more of a fruity character but they actually preferred it to the control that had not been hot-side aerated at all.

I should mention that they did notice very undesirable off-flavors from the beer that had been hot-side aerated pre-boil and post-boil but this thread is about post-boil HSA which, based on my experience and the experience of the home brewers in Austin, is nothing more than an unnecessary source of worry and stress for home brewers.

Of course, I will always cool my wort to pitching temperature before aerating whenever I can. I am not advocating post-boil HSA because it is possible that I just got lucky. The purpose of this thread is to help any home brewers who are worried about post-boil HSA to sleep better at night!

For those interested in the topic of HSA, this interview with Dr. Charles Bamforth is a MUST. If you don't feel like sitting for an hour and a half to listen to it, I'll sum it up for you.

Dr. Bamforth basically says that, while HSA can and will cause your beer to go stale faster, there are much easier and better solutions to the problem. He agrees that you should use common sense when brewing and not intentionally introduce oxygen to the wort until right before you pitch, but any extreme measures to avoid it don't make much sense. The best thing you can do to prevent staling and degradation of the flavor of your beer is to KEEP IT COLD! He states that, for every 10 degree (Celsius) rise in temperature, your beer will go stale 2 - 3 times faster. A beer stored at 20 degrees Celsius (68 Fahrenheit) that maintains it's flavor profile (doesn't go stale) for 3 months would go stale in just 1 month at 30 degrees Celsius (86 Fahrenheit). On the other hand, if you were to store that beer at 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) it would maintain it's flavor profile for 6 months. Keep it at 0 degrees Celsius and it will last for 1 year.

Basically, you can take all the care in the world to prevent HSA but if you don't store your beer cold, it's going to go stale relatively quickly anyways. What I took away from the interview with Dr. Bamforth is this: if you're really concerned about the effects of HSA on one of your brews, just wait until it's bottled and carbed and then stick it in the fridge. It will stay fresher that way for a much longer period of time than your beer that wasn't hot-side aerated and stored at room temperature.
 
HSA is a white unicorn - especially PRE-BOIL. Boiling drives off oxygen and the time exposure pre boil is negligable to more REAL oxidation problems post fermentation. (packaging, transfers,etc.). We as home brewers have to have something to fuss about...
 
So we now have documented evidence that ~95F is also a safe temp to aerate at... It would be interesting to have more tests performed with higher HSA at higher temperatures to see where the actual threshold sits.

Of course just a single batch doesn't make it universal. I'm not sure how many tests are needed for the brewing community (at large) to trust the result, but I would wager at least a few more would be in order. Although it could take years (or many participants) of test batches before the data is fully compiled. It would also be good if you could send a sample for evaluation (same place the other tests went to perhaps?)...

Personally, I'll just continue to aerate/oxygenate in primary, before pitching the yeast, post cool-down (under 70F) and not worry about it. Of course, I also oxygenate with pure O2, but that's another thread...
 
HSA isn't something that necessarily will be detected immediately. The pre-cursor compounds created can take a while to change in the beer. The problem you may run into is long term flavor stability.
 
While I wouldn't worry about it, I would also still try to be reasonably careful unless I had a very good reason to NOT be. Generally it's not hard to fairly gentle anyways.
 
HSA is a white unicorn - especially PRE-BOIL. Boiling drives off oxygen and the time exposure pre boil is negligable to more REAL oxidation problems post fermentation. (packaging, transfers,etc.). We as home brewers have to have something to fuss about...

But..

I should mention that they did notice very undesirable off-flavors from the beer that had been hot-side aerated pre-boil and post-boil

Any time someone emphatically states that HSA (at whatevever point pre-ferment) is a boogie man, they should at lease qualify how they arrived at this position. Personal experience? A podcast? An article? Someone on a homebrewtalk said it?

I'm not overly concerned about HSA but it would be cool to be able to read up a bit on how people have gotten so polarized on the topic.
 
But..



Any time someone emphatically states that HSA (at whatevever point pre-ferment) is a boogie man, they should at lease qualify how they arrived at this position. Personal experience? A podcast? An article? Someone on a homebrewtalk said it?

It's not a boogie man. Listen to the interview with Dr. Bamforth that I posted in my original post. It's real and it will cause your beer to go stale faster than beer that has not been hot-side aerated. You can significantly mitigate that risk though by storing your finished beer as cold as possible. It could last longer than your beer that has not been hot-side aerated and stored at room temperature.

I think the effects of HSA have been grossly exaggerated. If you have a really light-flavored beer you will obviously notice it more than you would in a robust beer. However, all beer will go stale and all beer will taste bad after enough time. HSA will speed that process up in varying degrees depending on how bad the problem is and you should use common sense in trying to avoid it but losing sleep at night over some splashed wort or having started aeration when the wort was above 80 degrees is just a waste of time and energy.
 
That is the point that Bamforth tries to get across. He basically says that there are more important things to think about, and be careful about, like post-fermentation aeration that can more significantly lead to oxidation. Or to keep your beer at a proper temp for storage and store for an appropriate amount of time. Higher temps can lead to oxidation, and other undesirable flavors faster than lower temps can.

My take on it is that there is such a thing, but that it would take a significant amount of aeration to really be noticeable under proper conditions.
 
It's not much about wasting time and energy. The way this discussion goes down around here often is a new brewer will post a "oh crap, I didn't know about HSA and I dumped my hot wort into a bucket from a height of 19 feet, now what? Is my beer ruined?"

Next you get 20 other posters stating with absolute certainty that HSA is nothing to worry about. Right, don't worry about it but perhaps it would be reasonable to change your process so the hot wort doesn't need to splash unnecessarily. Anything you do to minimize small potential off flavor-producing activities will eventually add up to better beer as they all have an additive effect.
 
I agree with Bobby. Everyone's system is different, and just because one might not notice a HSA problem, maybe on someone else's system it might be noticeable. Then to add to that everyone's taste buds are different. HSA is a concern for large breweries. I may not really be noticeable on our small scales, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. As a scientist it seems to me that when you have hot liquids and oxygen and organic compounds, things will be oxidized - the chemistry is unavoidable. We are all paranoid about our cool mostly fermented wort getting oxygen, so why not hot wort, where oxidation is more likely to occur? Maybe it is that yeast are able to clean up a bunch of any HSA produced compounds - on the homebrewer scale

I personally do not particularly worry about it. I am careful about not splashing hot wort. We'll actually, I don't worry about it at all, but then I've designed my system such that there really is no way for me to splash hot wort.

To me this is one of the points where science/brewing meets art. I see beauty in a well designed smooth functioning system. A well oiled machine works better than one that isn't. Sure they both may accomplish the same thing in the end, but one is just more pleasing, and may just very well result in a better end product.
 
Folks on HBT like to think in generalities. For example, I would agree with this statement:

Hot-side aeration is generally not of great concern in brewing. A healthy fermentation should reduce minor staling flavors present in wort.

But, as Bamforth and others have pointed out, it's more complex than that. HSA plays a definitive role in flavor development and melanoidin production that may "stick" in the final beer. As another poster pointed out, HSA provides staling precursors that, depending how the beer is stored and handled, expedite the staling process.
 
HSA is a white unicorn - especially PRE-BOIL. Boiling drives off oxygen and the time exposure pre boil is negligable to more REAL oxidation problems post fermentation. (packaging, transfers,etc.). We as home brewers have to have something to fuss about...


I'd be more concerned about pre-boil, specifically because the wort is hot. Like Dr. Bamforth mentioned in the article, HSA is about introducing compounds that cause premature staling. Those compounds are created much more quickly in a hot wort. Even if the boil drives off oxygen, if you are recirculating your mash and splashing it back in for an hour, you've already created the staling compounds, regardless of what happens in the boil.

That being said, I've never worried about HSA and homebrewers are likely to cause a lot more problems down the line, as you mentioned. That's where commercial brewers really have us beat. Keeping oxygen out from fermenter to package. They put a ton of effort towards keeping oxygen out of the finished beer. We can do a lot to prevent it but even the best homebrewers can't touch commercial brewers when it comes to dissolved oxygen in the packaged beer.
 
Are we talking out Hot Side Aeration or Oxidation in this thread? I see both terms thrown around like they are interchangable...especially in the OP.
 
But..



Any time someone emphatically states that HSA (at whatevever point pre-ferment) is a boogie man, they should at lease qualify how they arrived at this position. Personal experience? A podcast? An article? Someone on a homebrewtalk said it?

I'm not overly concerned about HSA but it would be cool to be able to read up a bit on how people have gotten so polarized on the topic.

I've come to my conclusions through the Bamforth podcast on Brew Strong, through research online around commercial brewery practices, and finally from my own concern when considering purchase of the Speidel Braumeister which has the wort constantly recirculating and falling back into the kettle pre-boil. Basic Brewing Radio released a podcast with an interview of Jan Halvor Fjeld, the 2010 Norwegian home brewer of the year and Braumeister user. He managed to brew the best beer in Norway (DIPA) with his wort 'waterfalling' in the kettle via the Braumeister.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

Now I'm not saying at some level that HSA isn't occurring - but it's about is it a perceptible level that matters. Our beers are degrading the moment they are mashed - we as home brewers need to focus our process where we can actually make a perceptible difference - and I say that is in our final product transfers, packaging, and storage temp control in most cases.
 
Are we talking out Hot Side Aeration or Oxidation in this thread? I see both terms thrown around like they are interchangable...especially in the OP.

We are talking about both. HSA is the cause and Oxidation is the effect. I haven't seen any posts so far that lead me to believe that any of us are confused about that.
 
I'm new to AG brewing and I have a round cooler for my mash tun. I just tried an AG batch using batch sparging and I used a one-gallon pitcher to collect the first runnings. We were also doing a very small experimental batch, so our grain level was very low in the cooler (note to self: use foam insulation to avoid the serious drop in temp from all of that dead air). Now, when using a rectangular cooler it would have been easy to dump the wort back without some serious splashing, but with the small opening of the round mash tun...how does one go about this without some serious distance from the top of the cooler to the top of the grain level? Use a funnel and a piece of tubing? I'm still really clueless on the whole sparging process.
 
I decided to do an experiment last night.* I took my boiling-hot post-boil wort, and took a jug and poured it through a metal sieve 1/2 gallon at a time into my empty HLT to filter out the metric ass-ton of hops I used. Then I chilled as normal through my CFC. I'll try to post results over time as this was a 10-gallon batch where some may age for awhile.

What "taste" is HSA supposed to be? Cardboard?






*disclaimer. This wasn't an experiment. :eek: My BK nozzle and CFC clogged immediately. I knew I'd need to filter out the hops to get it to work, so after I moved it to the HLT (with a lot of splashing), I backflushed the CFC and chilled as normal.
 
I decided to do an experiment last night.* I took my boiling-hot post-boil wort, and took a jug and poured it through a metal sieve 1/2 gallon at a time into my empty HLT to filter out the metric ass-ton of hops I used. Then I chilled as normal through my CFC. I'll try to post results over time as this was a 10-gallon batch where some may age for awhile.

What "taste" is HSA supposed to be? Cardboard?






*disclaimer. This wasn't an experiment. :eek: My BK nozzle and CFC clogged immediately. I knew I'd need to filter out the hops to get it to work, so after I moved it to the HLT (with a lot of splashing), I backflushed the CFC and chilled as normal.

It will taste oxidized - which I've heard words to describe as stale, catty, carboardy/papery,etc. Cardboard sums up my perception - once youve had a good example you can pick up subtle examples easier. My Pliny Clone is pretty severely oxidized due to a transfer problem I had with that beer.
 
I decided to do an experiment last night.* I took my boiling-hot post-boil wort, and took a jug and poured it through a metal sieve 1/2 gallon at a time into my empty HLT to filter out the metric ass-ton of hops I used. Then I chilled as normal through my CFC. I'll try to post results over time as this was a 10-gallon batch where some may age for awhile.

What "taste" is HSA supposed to be? Cardboard?

If it is loaded with hops you might never taste the effects. The oxidation that occurs as a result of HSA is most commonly described as having a cardboard flavor. I don't know if I would call it cardboard but I do get why it's often described in that way. It's one of those things that you just have to taste. It just plain tastes nasty.

The oxidized/stale beers that I've tasted were still drinkable so it's not a flavor that just overwhelms everything else. That, of course, depends on the style of beer as well. I bought an Amber Ale once from my local liquor store that had been on the shelf (not refrigerated) for over a year and the stale flavor was really noticeable. It had this sawdust/papery/cardboardy aftertaste that was unpleasant. Needless to say, I finished the 6 pack so it wasn't spit-it-out-immediately bad, just unpleasant and not something I want to taste again if I don't have to.
 
If it is loaded with hops you might never taste the effects. The oxidation that occurs as a result of HSA is most commonly described as having a cardboard flavor. I don't know if I would call it cardboard but I do get why it's often described in that way. It's one of those things that you just have to taste. It just plain tastes nasty.

The oxidized/stale beers that I've tasted were still drinkable so it's not a flavor that just overwhelms everything else. That, of course, depends on the style of beer as well. I bought an Amber Ale once from my local liquor store that had been on the shelf (not refrigerated) for over a year and the stale flavor was really noticeable. It had this sawdust/papery/cardboardy aftertaste that was unpleasant. Needless to say, I finished the 6 pack so it wasn't spit-it-out-immediately bad, just unpleasant and not something I want to taste again if I don't have to.

Yes........but...............lesser oxidation doesn't taste like cardboard. That's a severe case. A lesser case may taste a bit like sherry, or like in winemaking, be "madierized". It can change color a bit. Only when the oxidation is severe does it taste like cardboard.

Sometimes the "sherry" taste in a barley wine that has a tad bit of oxidation is actually pleasant.
 
Technically, if it wasnt for "HSA" you would not reap the benefits of first wort hopping. Its the oxidation that occurs to the hop oils (originally insoluble in H2O) that allows for them to be soluble in water and thus add those subtle bitterness notes associated with FWH.t

But I still feel that HSA is a myth when it comes to off flavors. I feel that only post-ferm will O2 lend its ugly hand to beer. Pre-ferm O2 is essential.
 
JefeTheVol said:
I feel that only post-ferm will O2 lend its ugly hand to beer. Pre-ferm O2 is essential.

That's why the idea that it's a myth has such legs. The whole idea behind HSA is that at the higher temperatures it reacts with compounds in the wort. It's not free O2 like the oxygen you add after chilling.
 
Technically, if it wasnt for "HSA" you would not reap the benefits of first wort hopping. Its the oxidation that occurs to the hop oils (originally insoluble in H2O) that allows for them to be soluble in water.

Technically, where did you hear that nonsense? :D

FWH changes the hop oil ratio and isomerization rate relative to a change in temperature and exposure time.

Sure, there is oxidation occurring (same as any heated process with oxygen present) but an "oxidized hop" aroma/flavor is not the desired or actual outcome and has no bearing on isomerization.
 
Technically, where did you hear that nonsense? :D

FWH changes the hop oil ratio and isomerization rate relative to a change in temperature and exposure time.

Sure, there is oxidation occurring (same as any heated process with oxygen present) but an "oxidized hop" aroma/flavor is not the desired or actual outcome and has no bearing on isomerization.

So you said my post was nonsense and then in the very next sentence said it was true? I didnt say it would lead to "oxidized flavor", I was merely stating an observation that oxidation (which doesnt necessarily have to be with oxygen as your post suggests) can lead to desirable effects. I provided a citation for you if you dont believe me.

"First Wort Hopping
An old yet recently rediscovered process (at least among homebrewers), first wort hopping (FWH) consists of adding a large portion of the finishing hops to the boil kettle as the wort is received from the lauter tun. As the boil tun fills with wort (which may take a half hour or longer), the hops steep in the hot wort and release their volatile oils and resins. The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to evaporate to a large degree during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to the boil, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage are retained during the boil.

Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions. Because more hops are in the wort longer during the boil, the total bitterness of the beer in increased but not by a substantial amount due to being low in alpha acid. In fact, one study among professional brewers determined that the use of FWH resulted in a more refined hop aroma, a more uniform bitterness (i.e. no harsh tones), and a more harmonious beer overall compared to an identical beer produced without FWH."

End Quote

Source: How to Brew by John Palmer. Chapter 5


-Jefe-
 
So you said my post was nonsense and then in the very next sentence said it was true?

:confused:

I'm not sure which version of Palmer's book is posted online (errata?) but his assertion that "oxidation of volatile hop oils" is the primary mechanism for capturing FWH flavor/aroma appears to be incorrect.

Oxidized oils (hop oils or otherwise) are not desirable to the human palate. The descriptors cheesy, rancid, etc. are often used...
 

Sure, heat an ounce of hops to 200F for one hour and smell them - not pleasant. ;)


Hop Chemistry: Homebrew Science

Oxygen-containing compounds

This class of compound grows with time as hops are stored and their components oxidize. Poor storage of hops will result in hops that may contain up to 50% of these compounds. Since they may represent powerful flavoring agents that find their way into beer through late kettle additions of hops, some brewers deliberately age their hops to enhance these qualities. They consist of oxidized terpenes, higher alcohols, aldehydes, ketones and esters. Linalool and geraniol are higher alcohols and provide a floral character to beers, while geranyl acetate is an ester and provides a fruity character.

I'm unaware of any breweries that desire "cheesy aroma hops" but they appear to exist.

Like I said earlier, I'm sure oxygenation plays a role but it's certainly not the primary factor, nor the goal of FWH. Isomerization of volatile hop oils (otherwise evaporate in a boil) is the primary factor.
 
I don't see where I said it is the primary factor, either.

You said my comment was nonsense and I backed it up with a source. Your source, on the other hand, while ripe with knowledge, makes no mention of first wort hopping, nor does it provide a method. It seems to only refer to isomerization of hops in the boil

Can you provide another source that mentions FWH? Id like to see where Palmer's mistakes are.
-Jefe-
 
Can you provide another source that mentions FWH? Id like to see where Palmer's mistakes are.

Did Palmer cite a source? It's probably his own conjecture. ;)

You do realize books like "How to Brew" are not scientific and would not stand up to any sort of rigorous analysis. All of the homebrewing books contain incorrect technical statements and should not be taken as fact.

I'm enjoying this. You're clearly very bothered that I disagree with something you posted from a book, despite the statement flying in the face of known brewing techniques. :)
 
Fellas, fellas, relax! I appreciate the passionate debate but if this goes much further we're going to have to get you two in a room and put it on daytime television.
 
Im not heated at all. Im sorry if my post suggested anything other than friendly debate. I feel that this conversation only helps to further diseminate brewing knowledge. My disagreement with you is that the only evidence you have given me about the chemical process involved in fwh is that brewing books are full of errors.

If you dont have access to the information, thats fine. But from one scientist to another, I will take the published word over unpublished word 9 times out of 10.

If you are finsished with the thread, I understand, I just want to know which sources to trust and which to dismiss.
-Jefe-
 
Here's a scientific (and largely inclusive) FWH experiment.

I read the article as best I could, and I love what I could get, but the right side of the webpage has erased the last couple of words on the right hand side of every line. I googled for about 10 minutes but each Brauwelt google search for the article came up emptyhanded.

So...if its not changing in electron states in a chemical reaction that allows the normally volatile hop oils to escape the regular boil, and thus solubilize in the wort, what reaction is taking place?
 
There's oxidation, and then there's oxidation. I learned it as OIL RIG. Oxidation is Loss, Reduction is gain (of electrons)

Yes many oxidation reactions involve oxygen, and in brewing, these reactions produce unpleasant compounds. Then there is oxidation, that DOES NOT involve oxygen, and gives very different types of compounds, none the less, oxidized. I'm not sure if this is what is happening with the hop oils, but very well could be. C-C is less soluble then C=C (oxidized), but -OH is more soluble then =O (oxidized). Need to do more reading

As for Palmer, as I've read through it, sometimes he does not quite use the scientific terminology correctly, or at least not clearly such as to avoid misinterpretation
 
I was just searching for more info on post-boil HSA. I had no idea this was a possibility, and I started brewing about a year ago. I've done about 12 batches (extract) so far, and I keg. My "standard" process so far while cooling the wort has been to take the immersion chiller and work it up and down like crazy in the wort to help aerate it, and cool it faster. This is directly from the boil. After that, I pour it through a funnel, splash it all around the sides of the carboy, and then pitch.

I haven't noticed any off flavors developed in any of the batches so far, with the caveat that the longest a batch has lasted in my keg was about 3 months.

Just thought I'd pitch in my experience.
 
Back
Top