Possible to prep a Barrel (prev. Stout-filled) for a Golden Sour?

[Candyman84]

Hi all,

apologies if this has been discussed anywhere here, already, but I searched the heck out of the forum and google and could not find a proper answer.

I have 5 gallon Whiskey Barrel that I have used for 2 batches of Russian Imperial Stout and now that I am finally ready to dive into sours, what better use of it to fill with a soon-to-become Sour.

Now, I love the clean, lactic acidity of Golden Sours more than anything.
Is there are a way to clean the barrel well enough to prep it for such a light colored beer?
I love myself a sour dark or sour stout as well, no doubt, but I am dreading the idea of having this nice Belgian Golden Ale in there, go through a year or so of souring, just to realize it got a harsh, maybe slightly roast to it or even has browned out beyond recognition.

If this is an altogether bad idea and there is a good article about sequencing styles then I am all ears. I may rather switch to a darker style than ending up with something I tried to avoid.

All opinions welcome

Happy brewing!

 

[crane]

I recently pulled a Russian imperial Stout out if my 10 gallon barrel and filled it with a Flanders red. I thought about a golden sour, but had concerns that too much Stout was left in the wood. I did however clean out the barrel by filling it with boiling water. You could give that a try and see how brown the water is after a few rinses.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I wouldn't for a few reasons.

I had a 5 gallon whisky barrel that I ran 4 batches through: A giant stout, a Belgian quad, a Belgian double, and then an historical IPA (at least that what I was going for). After the first 3 batches I cleaned the hell out of the barrel several times. I filled it with boiling water and let it soak for a few days and then repeated. I really wanted a neutral barrel for the fourth batch. The fourth batch was supposed to be an historical IPA. One grain (Pearl), one hop (EKG), and then stored in the oak barrel. I only kept the beer in the barrel for 3 months because I didn't want to over oak it. Well, it was over oaked, and still had a strong whisky flavor! If you put a golden sour in a whisky barrel I'm pretty sure it will pick up a ton of whisky, char, and oak. Also, because of the small size of the barrel, it will be an oak bomb!

This is just my experience, maybe others have had better luck.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Wahoo]

It really depends on the barrel. I have a balcones barrel that was only a medium char and I would have no reservations at all about putting a golden in there.

On the other hand I have a rye whiskey barrel that is like 3 years old and while the char character has gone down substantially, it still is prominent.

My biggest piece of advice here is to do it-- but do NOT wait a year. Pitch a strong souring culture and start tasting after 2 months with plans to move it out no more than 6 months. If you have to move it to a carboy to let it finish out, so be it.

 

[Candyman84]

I recently pulled a Russian imperial Stout out if my 10 gallon barrel and filled it with a Flanders red. I thought about a golden sour, but had concerns that too much Stout was left in the wood. I did however clean out the barrel by filling it with boiling water. You could give that a try and see how brown the water is after a few rinses.

Flanders was also a thought I had, but granted it is not quite one of the easier styles to brew, I wanted to avoid that for first attempts.

I wouldn't for a few reasons.

I had a 5 gallon whisky barrel that I ran 4 batches through: A giant stout, a Belgian quad, a Belgian double, and then an historical IPA (at least that what I was going for). After the first 3 batches I cleaned the hell out of the barrel several times. I filled it with boiling water and let it soak for a few days and then repeated. I really wanted a neutral barrel for the fourth batch. The fourth batch was supposed to be an historical IPA. One grain (Pearl), one hop (EKG), and then stored in the oak barrel. I only kept the beer in the barrel for 3 months because I didn't want to over oak it. Well, it was over oaked, and still had a strong whisky flavor! If you put a golden sour in a whisky barrel I'm pretty sure it will pick up a ton of whisky, char, and oak. Also, because of the small size of the barrel, it will be an oak bomb!

This is just my experience, maybe others have had better luck.

Cheers,
Mike

Same thoughts, same concerns, which is why I opened this thread and I was already moving away from the thought until...

It really depends on the barrel. I have a balcones barrel that was only a medium char and I would have no reservations at all about putting a golden in there.

On the other hand I have a rye whiskey barrel that is like 3 years old and while the char character has gone down substantially, it still is prominent.

My biggest piece of advice here is to do it-- but do NOT wait a year. Pitch a strong souring culture and start tasting after 2 months with plans to move it out no more than 6 months. If you have to move it to a carboy to let it finish out, so be it.

That is exactly the barrel I have. Thanks for the encouraging note, which pushed me right back to my plan of a Golden Sour.

Also great advice on the duration. Funny enough, I was even planning for a De Bom strain, which I heard can sour really nicely within a few months. Wanted to get started with something where I can see faster results, so I can make progress faster and then move into the 1 year + realms.

Any other thoughts or advice?

May brew this within the next few weeks as the Stout in the barrel should urgently come out (already afraid I am oxidizing it after it being in there for 2.5 months now - first batch was just 10 days).

 

[Candyman84]

Quick update. I am almost done reading American Sour Beers, which was a good exercise reaffirming some of my existing knowledge, piecing together some isolated bits and gaining all-new knowledge.

I still have my concerns over the previous batches aged in the barrel, imparting too much flavor for a lighter style such as a Golden Sour. Since I am a growingly big fan of Dark Sours, Brett Stouts - especially when aged on Sour Cherries - and I have a Milk Stout that has not fermented down as much as I wanted (Lactose not even yet added) and tasting rather thin and not very lively, while leaving plenty of sugars for bacteria to work on, I have decided it will make a good enough base. I am not talking about a messed up batch (I know, I know ... these should not be used for souring either).

So, I have transferred it over to the barrel already and the plan is to start off with the popular Roeselare Blend (waiting for it to arrive), perhaps adding bottle dregs if it is not coming around the way I want it after 6-12 months and then eventually age it on Sour Cherries.
Overoaking should not be an issue at this point anymore, but will still monitor and rack it off if necessary and finish in a carboy.

Any thoughts on when a good point in time is to expect the Roeselare Blend to produce the desired profile? I am asking since I do not want to jump to adding dregs early, so was thinking to wait 6-12 months before even considering further additions.

 

[sweetcell]

Any thoughts on when a good point in time is to expect the Roeselare Blend to produce the desired profile? I am asking since I do not want to jump to adding dregs early, so was thinking to wait 6-12 months before even considering further additions.

Roeselare is on the weaker side. it doesn't sour that much, in my experience. the lacto appears to be very hop- and alcohol-sensitive. plenty of threads here about folks being underwhelmed with Roe when used alone. it's a solid starting point, the bretts are good, but not a lot of sour power in there.

personally, i would add dregs from the outset to provide some backup to the Roe.

 

[Candyman84]

Roeselare is on the weaker side. it doesn't sour that much, in my experience. the lacto appears to be very hop- and alcohol-sensitive. plenty of threads here about folks being underwhelmed with Roe when used alone. it's a solid starting point, the bretts are good, but not a lot of sour power in there.

personally, i would add dregs from the outset to provide some backup to the Roe.

Done that.
Added a dreg from Avery's incredible Lunctis Viribus as well as a week later dregs from a Paradox Cherry Sour as well as the fantastic bottle of Allagash James and Julia.
These should fare well.

Question, how man dregs do you usually add over time? Go big and bold or is there something like a point where it gets too much?

 

[sweetcell]

Question, how man dregs do you usually add over time? Go big and bold or is there something like a point where it gets too much?

dregs are best added early on, while there are still some sugars for them to much on.

personally, i try not to open up my aging sours any more than absolutely necessary to avoid possible contamination and over-exposure to oxygen. with that in mind, i add bugs when racking to secondary (if bugs weren't already present in primary) and then try not to open the vessel again until it's time to start tasting - a year out or more.

opening up your aging sour on a regular basis to add the dregs of one bottle at a time seems like a bad idea to me. so just before you seal up the beer, have yourself a sour drinking party (with or without assistance ), collect up the dregs and add them all at once. then sing them a song, wish them good luck, and return in several months.

how many bottles' worth of dregs to add? i typically go for 3-5 bottles worth but this isn't based on anything scientific, just what has worked for me.

for one dregs-driven beer, i collected dregs over a week, adding them to a jar with some starter wort. let that go for about 2 weeks, then pitched the entire "starter" into a beer fermented with sacch. i just bottled the beer this week and the sample at bottling tasted great.