Possible experiment...

[bizmarky]

so i was just sitting here pondering over my next batch. i'm fairly new to brewing and haven't ventured in to experiments yet. but i am very curious about this...

So i'm wondering what it would be like/what would be the results of brewing a beer in two fermentations and with two different yeast, i.e. first fermentation with an ale yeast and secondary with a lager yeast. has anyone tried/thought of this? can you give me some feed back on what the possible out comes would be? what might be a good starting point for this experiment as far as types of ingredients?

i'm thinking i'll ferment in the first phase as if i was doing a lager. then cooling is down and adding in new yeast, then continuing on as a lager.

bring the criticism.

 

[Ole_Smoky]

Chances are you wouldnt get any fermentation out of the second yeast addition because the first yeast will use up all the fermentable sugars. Im fairly new to the hobby to so that might not be 100% correct but thats how I understand it works. Usually when you transfer to secondary your at or near your FG. I think if you were to try and add a lager and ale yeast while there was still fermentable sugars then you will have one doing good work and the other screwing things up on either end of the scale since they both need different temps for a happy fermentation.

 

[Brauer]

i'm thinking i'll ferment in the first phase as if i was doing a lager. then cooling is down and adding in new yeast, then continuing on as a lager.

bring the criticism.

Sounds a lot like a.... um........ uh....Lager, and a waste of 4 to 8 dollars depending on what the second yeast was. You would get about the same result flushing the second yeast down the crapper.

A good experiment would be to work on your process. I am by no means a professional but would think as a new brewer you should stick to the basics. Try to make some good beer. Not good beer but "Man that's some f×××ing good beer" good beer!. Keep the process simple and share it with everybody. In return ask for some honest feedback. Everybody thinks their beer is amazing, it's because we put of heart and soul into our beer, that make a us biased. If this comes of as *****EY that was not my intent....end of intended constructive criticism attemp.
Prost

 

[hottpeper13]

Why not use a Kolsch yeast and do the first week in primary at ale temps and finish it at lager temps. Because you mention lagering, you have the ability to get down to those temps and that alone will make f*&^ing good beer

 

[divrguy]

I thought you meant 2 batches and 2 yeasts. If you meant 2 yeasts per batch... Then read read read.... Folks do it all the time but for reasons you don't mention. Things like taking a very high OG down in stages and with different yeasts for example.

 

[bizmarky]

Chances are you wouldnt get any fermentation out of the second yeast addition because the first yeast will use up all the fermentable sugars.

You are right. But I would add in the yeast at the exact same time. Then to fix the problem of not having enough yeast to do the work in the secondary I would increase the amount of yeast/sugar. I've heard of people adding things in when they switch to the secondary, i.e. yeast/sugar.

 

[Brauer]

I'm very confused at what your trying to accomplish.
If you worried about a lack of yeast the just add you additional sugars in the primary. Transferring to another vessle and the adding more yeast sugar? I'm lost! If you want a beer with 2 different yeasts, make five gallons split add a SINGLE yeast strain to each 2.5 gallon batch. Ferment them out full and blend together at packaging.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Do your lager, then pitch brettanomyces and ferment at ale temps.

 

[joshesmusica]

i'm no professional, but my gut (and maybe common sense?) tells me that your outcome will be:

if you do lager temps first:
you'll be mistreating the ale yeast, which could produce off-flavors, but more than likely will just put it to sleep early. waste of pitching that yeast.

if you do ale temps first:
lager yeast will likely produce off-flavors that neither or them can clean up, the ale yeast might do ok, but then you have two different types of yeast competing against each other. the battle could get ugly.

i like the idea of fermenting out with the two separate yeasts, in the two separate batches, maybe even bottling/kegging separately, then combining a couple of samples. then you could try lager yeast vs. ale yeast vs. combo and see which you like best. if you like the combo, then you can just continue to combine them!

 

[okbecker]

If you are using a secondary, then still have to add yeast- then you did not pitch enough yeast in the first place. I say experiment all you want but just be prepared for some off batches and loss of money. The secondary is typically used only for clearing your beer or fruit/hop additions....the term "secondary fermenter" is really misleading.

 

[joshesmusica]

If you are using a secondary, then still have to add yeast- then you did not pitch enough yeast in the first place. I say experiment all you want but just be prepared for some off batches and loss of money. The secondary is typically used only for clearing your beer or fruit/hop additions....the term "secondary fermenter" is really misleading.

it's only misleading because people have shortened it from secondary fermentation vessel, to secondary fermentation, to secondary. although there is a such thing as secondary fermentation (i.e. adding more fermentables, or adding another yeast strain to a high gravity beer in order to complete fermentation), but most of the time when people use the term, it's used incorrectly, therefore, the misleading.

but to the point of the OP, if you ferment out with one yeast, then rack to a secondary vessel, then add another yeast strain, if all the fermentables are gone, adding that second strain will do nothing... except possibly cause off-flavors.

 

[bizmarky]

Okay so I definitely did not communicate well enough....might have been a little drunk too.

This would be the process:

Initially pitch just ale yeast. Ferment at ale temps. As normal.

When I go to switch to the secondary, take record and cool down to lager temps. Do what I need to make it pleasant for the lager yeast, then pitch the lager yeast. Ferment the rest of the process as a lager.

 

[joshesmusica]

Okay so I definitely did not communicate well enough....might have been a little drunk too.

This would be the process:

Initially pitch just ale yeast. Ferment at ale temps. As normal.

When I go to switch to the secondary, take record and cool down to lager temps. Do what I need to make it pleasant for the lager yeast, then pitch the lager yeast. Ferment the rest of the process as a lager.

seems we responded at the same time... see the above...

 

[bizmarky]

Yeah people do use the term with different meaning. I was using it in the more literal sense, where I would have another stage of fermentation. Definitely adding in more fermentables to feed the new yeast.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yeah people do use the term with different meaning. I was using it in the more literal sense, where I would have another stage of fermentation. Definitely adding in more fermentables to feed the new yeast.

but what kind of fermentables are you talking about (maybe you already said, sorry, drinking...)? you're throwing the new yeast into an incredibly harsh environment (low ph, high alcohol), and if it's sugar, not even giving them any nutrients to help deal with the newly discovered environment. i'm all for experimenting (really i am, i love experimenting), but this one has a high percentage of disaster written all over it.

i'm not saying don't do it. i'm simply saying to be aware that you could be wasting some money on this one. if you're willing to forgo those chances, i'm willing to hear about the results!

 

[okbecker]

Or...you could ferment your ale yeast at the cool end to produce a cleaner more lager like ale. Or use a good Alt yeast.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Or use Cry Havoc.

 

[okbecker]

it's only misleading because people have shortened it from secondary fermentation vessel, to secondary fermentation, to secondary. although there is a such thing as secondary fermentation (i.e. adding more fermentables, or adding another yeast strain to a high gravity beer in order to complete fermentation), but most of the time when people use the term, it's used incorrectly, therefore, the misleading.

but to the point of the OP, if you ferment out with one yeast, then rack to a secondary vessel, then add another yeast strain, if all the fermentables are gone, adding that second strain will do nothing... except possibly cause off-flavors.

No doubt there is a "such thing" though as I stated earlier it is typically used for clearing and hops/ fruit (more fermentable). The reality is that the majority of home brewers use it as I stated previously....therefore it is misleading to call it a secondary fermentation vessel and probably more realistic to be called simply a secondary.