Pomponianus: Sessioning down the Vinnie Pliny Recipe

[skoodog]

Hi folks,

I'm brewing three beers for my wedding and want to align to three styles - a brown, a hefe and a session IPA. The first two I just borrowed two recipes exactly as printed from various internet sources, but the IPA (my favorite style) I wanted to recreate a sessionable version of my favorite beer and be as aligned to the original as possible while reducing the overall alcoholic "punch" as having my guests in their cups is a bad look. I looked at the Pliny the Toddler recipe but it doesn't use the same recipe at all (ingredients, hop types and schedule all very different) so I'm skeptical.

I plugged the ingredients from Vinnie Cilurzo's recipe into Brewer's Friend and basically halved the down, trying to hit certain gravity/IBU markers based on various tips from Vinnie himself and other brewers (plus my own limited experience) and this is what I got:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: White Labs California Ale WLP001
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV: 4.59%
IBU: 94.36
Color: 5.21 SRM

Grain Bill
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
8.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 86.7%
0.4 lb German - Carapils 35 1.3 4.1%
0.4 lb United Kingdom - Crystal 45L 34 45 4.1%
0.5 lb Corn Sugar - Dextrose 46 0.5 5.1%

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
1 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 90 min 54.97
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 45 min 23.59
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 20 min 15.81
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Boil 0 min
1.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 14 days
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 7 days

Mash
Single Infusion mash for 60 minutes at 151 degrees.

Any thoughts/tips? Are there some major changes I need to do to get the goal I'm after?

EDIT: Here's the brewers friend link I'll update the recipe on with your suggestions. http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/305683/pomponianus

 

[BrewersFriend]

Looks great - definitely will have to update us with pictures and tasting notes once you've brewed it. Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials!

 

[JasonG]

Looks good overall. I wonder if the IBU might be a bit high. You have over a 2 BU:GU ratio - might move out of the "sessionable" range, especially for a diverse crowd of people. I might consider decreasing the 90 min colombus amount, and maybe moving it to 60 min to try to drop the IBUs. Personally I would increase the dry hop amounts closer to 4-6 oz if you are trying to fashion a Pliny type beer, but you may be trying to keep it restrained for the masses, which I understand.

JG

 

[skoodog]

Looks good overall. I wonder if the IBU might be a bit high. You have over a 2 BU:GU ratio - might move out of the "sessionable" range, especially for a diverse crowd of people. I might consider decreasing the 90 min colombus amount, and maybe moving it to 60 min to try to drop the IBUs. Personally I would increase the dry hop amounts closer to 4-6 oz if you are trying to fashion a Pliny type beer, but you may be trying to keep it restrained for the masses, which I understand.

JG

Exactly what I was about to post (but didn't want to make it look like I was bumping my own post). Thanks for the comments!

After running the BU/GU ratio, you're absolutely right - I'm far exceeding even remotely the range of bitterness for imperials (let alone APA which is closer to what I'd want to match in style) and don't want to end up making hop tea as a result.

After I tinkered with the recipe and halved all the boil-related hop additions I got closer to a 1 BU/GU range - but I don't want to overcorrect. The Vinnie recipe is about a 0.75, so maybe I'm still too high? From what I understand of the bittering math, only boil additions really add to the IBU side.

One thing I want to make sure I get right is the malt additions - I'm like Vinnie in that I don't like a big malty backbone on my IPAs, though I've read in some other session Pliny recipes people suggest cutting the corn sugar addition out as that's all clean fermentables. To me, Pliny is the perfect IPA malt level, so I'm hesitant to mess with perfection.

EDIT: Here's the recipe as it stands now:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: White Labs California Ale WLP001
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV: 4.59%
IBU: 47.18
Color: 5.21 SRM

Grain Bill
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
8.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 86.7%
0.4 lb German - Carapils 35 1.3 4.1%
0.4 lb United Kingdom - Crystal 45L 34 45 4.1%
0.5 lb Corn Sugar - Dextrose 46 0.5 5.1%

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 90 min 54.97
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 45 min 23.59
0.25 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 20 min 15.81
0.25 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Boil 0 min
0.75 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 14 days
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 7 days

Mash
Single Infusion mash for 60 minutes at 151 degrees.
Thanks again - any other comments?

 

[Beezer94]

I'd cut the corn sugar out completely as you should have no problem getting a plenty-dry beer from a starting gravity of 1.045. Just replace that with enough 2-row to get same gravity.

And a 60 minute boil should be plenty or you could end up needing too much sparge water on a little beer.

 

[atom]

i's remove the sugar and up the carapils to a full lb. i'd also mash higher...155 or so. reason being so that you retain some body. that's the biggest challenge in creating a session ipa.

 

[normonster]

What about water Scoo? What are you going to use? If found that starting with RO and building up from there isn't very intimidating after all. Can be important they say, especially for highly hopped beers.

 

[bkboiler]

yep, I'd go after a little more than 45 IBUs since the beer will be dry, you don't want it to come off as fizzy water. 50-55is what I'd do, since it's west coast and has lots of simcoe, centennial, etc..
that being said, id drop the 45 min addition, and do at least 1 oz of hops additionally in a hop stand at around 170 for at least 30 minutes. huge aroma contribution which is what you're looking for in a session IPA. Beersmith will not calculate flameout additions as contributing any IBUs, but if you're gonna let it slowly cool down to 170, then count on maybe 10-15% utilization.
if you're holding it below 175F, you won't see any isomerization/bittering effects--just flavor/aroma/mouthfeel.

 

[skoodog]

Thanks for all the additional comments! Let me try to address the comments:

1) Malts, specifically the corn sugar: Beezer94/atom, this was one of Vinnie's additions to make sure the gravity was higher (per his Zymurgy article), which of course in a session is not a goal, but gives a backbone without affecting the flavor too much - as I stated before, I don't want the malt profile to be much more than balance against the hops and good mouthfeel. If I drop the sugar, is there any risk that the 2-row/Carapils addition will throw off the balance against the hops? I view Pliny as the most balanced IIPA I've ever had so that flavor profile is my ideal.

2) Mash temp - Atom, Vinnie in his article was very explicit about staying under 152F but this was to get a lighter body out of a stronger beer - you're probably right, if I bring this up to 155, do i need to make any adjustments to my malt bill to not overshoot the light body I'm looking for?

3) Water - Great callout normonster - I plan to add gypsum to my water profile - I got some advice from a brewer friend of mine to mix distilled and tap 50/50, though I may just go for all distilled and add a tbsp of gypsum to burtonize. I may need to add epsom salts too - do you/anyone have some feedback on how much additives to add to distilled water for a 5.5 gal batch?

4) Hops - thanks for the feedback bkboiler - I'm keeping the Columbus addition as is but adding 0.75 oz as a hopstand (want to keep as close to the original recipe as possible).

Based on all of your comments, the recipe as it now stands is:


Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: White Labs California Ale WLP001
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV: 4.66%
IBU: 47.18
Color: 5.21 SRM
Brewhouse Efficiency (est.): 65%

Grain Bill
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
8.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 81%
1 lb German - Carapils 35 1.3 9.5%
1 lb United Kingdom - Crystal 45L 34 45 9.5%

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.50 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 90 min 27.36
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Boil 45 min 11.74
0.50 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 20 min 15.74
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Boil 0 min
2.00 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
0.25 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Whirlpool at °F 0 min 3.4
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at °F 0 min 4.26
0.25 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Whirlpool at °F 0 min 4.32
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 14 days
0.75 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 14 days
0.75 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 7 days
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 7 days
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 7 days

Additional thoughts? As always thanks for all your comments!

 

[bkboiler]

upped the flameout simcoe to 2oz! I like it!!
I would consult this link for the grain bill
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=296940
NJStout's recipe was on the HBT top 100 posted last year.
I would encourage staying below 8% total specialty grains. The malt backbone is supposed to be less substantial in a sessionable IPA. It looks like you've got the FG correct, but at 20% specialty, that'll end up being fairly sweet. Like atom says, maybe mashing higher is the answer.

 

[Beezer94]

Corn sugar is only used to increase ABV without increasing final gravity. In a double IPA like Pliny that you want to finish sufficiently dry, it helps ensure that you get great attenuation because it's basically 100% fermentable. Again not an issue in a small beer; in fact it's the lack of malt backbone and alcohol is what makes lower ABV IPA hard.

Bertus Brewery page has a nice bit of information about his attempt a low alcohol, hoppy beer.
Attempt 1: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/05/itty-bitty-pale-ale.html
Attempt 2: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/10/micro-pale-ale-20.html
Attempt 3: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2014/12/micro-pale-ale-30.html

You will notice that he struggled to get sufficient backbone.

Brewing Network's The Session show with Lagunita's about Session Beers:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post2081/

The reality is you are trying to get a malt backbone/finish that matches that of the higher gravity brews out of one with half as much malt and alcohol.

 

[normonster]

@skoo - In this article Vinnie says the sugar is to dry out the IPA but doesn't focus on the ABV addition it provides (lots of tips from him too and thoughts on a Pliny The Younger actually being a session beer and how he might do it): http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo/

As far as water, I just got my first order of gypsum, lactic, etc, so no expert at all but Brewn' Water is free and if you're going to build from distilled the additions are very straight forward. It even has guidelines for styles and geographies. You could figure it out in 1 hour. Glad to give up the two pointers I have after having just gone through the hmmmm phase. Course you gotta take everything I say with a grain of salt cuz I don't know half what some of these guys know.

 

[skoodog]

Thanks again Beezer94 and normonster for the great feedback and tips!

Beezer94, after reading through those posts I'm halfway thinking about going completely back to the drawing board and redoing my whole recipe to align to his latest PTE recipe! Great feedback - I'll definitely update the hop schedule with Amarillo additions

Normonster, id love to get some of your tips as yes I'm building from distilled. I'd actually dug into Brun'Water but found it to be a little too clumsy for me (though I'm trying to figure out how to unlock the file so I can apply some Solver magic to the water additions tab). I used Brewers Friend's calculator and through some trial and error got me to a similar yellow bitter water profile with additions where I don't have to futz with acids (acids scare me...remind me of trying to balance the pool levels!).

The additions are:

9 g gypsum
2.5 g CaCl
2 g Epsom salt
1 g canning salt

I'll repost in a bit with an updated recipe! As always thanks all for the replies!

 

[normonster]

LOL, agreed solver would be ultra useful (could easily be built into the sheet with macro too - I have some excel skills as well) but don't unlock his software (or maybe don't mention it because author is highly respected here).

wtf 1 - using distilled you skip to page two (which is straight forward)

wtf 2 - on page 3 set dilution to 100% and use drop down to select distilled. Trial and error with gypsum, Epsom salt and calcium chloride and acid of you want (see below).

wtf 3 - acid addition shows up on sheet 3 but result of additions to mash show on page 4 (gotta bounce back and fourth or do like me and adjust your mash ph using acid malt in your grist).

That's really it - I think...lol. Page 5 sums it up.

 

[skoodog]

Alright, again thanks for all the great tips! I've updated my recipe to be more in line with the NEW Pliny recipe:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: White Labs California Ale WLP001
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.046
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV: 4.51%
IBU: 118.92
Color: 6.59 SRM

Grain Bill
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
10 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 95.2%
0.5 lb United Kingdom - Crystal 60L 34 60 4.8%

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.75 oz Apollo Pellet 20 Boil 90 min 69.16
0.25 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Boil 45 min 8.51
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 30 min 21.03
0.5 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Whirlpool at 200 °F 15 min 4.77
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Whirlpool at 200 °F 15 min 6.81
0.5 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Whirlpool at 200 °F 15 min 8.65
0.833 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Dry Hop 14 days
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 14 days
1 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 14 days
0.36 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 7 days
0.75 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Dry Hop 7 days
1 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 7 days

Mash
Single Infusion mash for 60 minutes at 154 degrees.

Darkened the specialty malt and bumped up my mash a couple degrees to add body, scaled the hops down by 50% but the IBU still basically matches Bertus' recipe (a couple of the comments say the calculated IBU well exceeds the actual IBU of around 70, so I'm risking it here). I'll still make water adjustments as per my other post.

Does this look pretty good?

 

[normonster]

**** yeah - I want one!

 

[Rottnme]

So how did this end up? I've been lurking and waiting to here, I'm thinking of trying something similar this weekend.