Pliny the Elder with Amarillo?

[Btaz]

I did a lot of research for this recipe a few months ago. When I did my taste test between mine and the real thing it tasted like I didn't have enough Simcoe. Just glancing art this recipe proves it. I'll have to try it again.

 

[ultravista]

Now we'll have to work-out the AAU contribution for the 90, 45, and 30 minutes.

How do you work 1500 grams AA to AAU?

Notes from a Brewing Network show (me thinks) was approximately 48-50 AAU @ 90 minutes, 10-12 AAU @ 45 minutes, 10-12 AAU @ 30 minutes.

Where does one get Warrior and Amarillo extract?

Finally, what is an average extraction percentage for a pro brewery? Plugging this into Beersmith ... 94% extraction @ 2030 gallons with 4115 pounds of grain/sugar yields 1.070.

elpenoso - do you know the batch size?

 

[elpenoso]

It should be right around 60 bbl.

 

[ultravista]

1860 gallons @ 1.070 would be a yield of approximately 84% extraction. Wish mine that was high

 

[SphnxRnch]

For a 5.5 gallon batch, how many Warrior 5ml hopshots would you think appropriate? I used a calculator and it came out to 4, which seems really high. I was thinking 2 or 3 maybe.

 

[ultravista]

I'm trying to figure out the same thing, the hops in pounds and/or in extract.

 

[SphnxRnch]

Using this calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

and then this table:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/HopShot_Hop_Extract_Instructions.pdf

I figured for the Warrior bittering additions, that I need 10ml or two hopshots (I had it wrong first time...believe 2 is the way to go)

 

[Ski12568]

Using this calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

and then this table:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/HopShot_Hop_Extract_Instructions.pdf

I figured for the Warrior bittering additions, that I need 10ml or two hopshots (I had it wrong first time...believe 2 is the way to go)

That would put it way over the 70 IBU target at the top of the page. All the clones I see are way over 70 IBUs. I never had it to compare to another 70ish IBU beer.

 

[Ski12568]

So far this is what I came up with for a 5.5 gallon batch with 75% efficiency and no water to dilute:
93.5% (13lb 1.4oz ) Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
1.6% (3.6oz ) Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
4.9% (11oz) Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Columbus [15.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min
0.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min
0.25 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Columbus [15.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
0.50 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
0.50 oz Columbus [15.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.072 OG, 76 IBUs, 5.6 SRM
Mash temp I can't figure out because of the estimated FG I am getting in BeerSmith. 148F mash with US-05 gets to 1.009 (2.45) but their mash temp says 154F.
I am stuck on the hops but I feel it is very close. The only thing I can see that doesn't really jive is the extract for warrior and amarillo at 90 min.

 

[orangehero]

Mash temp I can't figure out because of the estimated FG I am getting in BeerSmith. 148F mash with US-05 gets to 1.009 (2.45) but their mash temp says 154F.

There's nothing to figure out, any software's estimated FG is pretty much useless. The attenuation figures from the yeast companies, which the software is based on, are there to give you only a rough idea of how well a particular strain attenuates.

Every brew system is different, and through experience you have to figure out the parameters to get what you are looking for.

If you aren't familiar with your system yet, I'd start with the recipe mash temp not what beersmith is telling you.

 

[SphnxRnch]

Scott Bertus looks to have this clone wired here: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/08/pliny-elder-clone-30.html

 

[ultravista]

Ski12568 - how did you arrive at your numbers? What are the assumptions?

0.50 oz Columbus [15.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min
0.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min

This can't be right. The Zymurgy article calls for:

3.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 5 157.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 6 28.9 IBUs

 

[Btaz]

The 90 and 60 min additions are hop extract additions and not hop pellets... I believe

 

[ultravista]

90 and 45 are extract, the rest are pellet.

 

[ultravista]

Thus far, I am unable to find Warrior and Amarillo extract. Yakima Chief, Yakima Valley and Hop Tech say they don't carry either.

Where would RR or Firestone source this stuff?

It's tough to calculate the amount in pounds (at least for me) to scale it down.

Scott @ Bertus Brewery claims 48AAU at 90 minutes and 10AAU at 45min.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/12/ipa-clone-series-pliny-elder.html?showComment=1354823971062#c2899066997108400612

I put the kettle hops from the Zymurgy recipe (as provided by Vinnie) into Excel to calculate the AA contributions and the results are nearly identical to Scott's.

Once we know the bittering charge, it's easy to sub other varieties.

 

[Ski12568]

Ski12568 - how did you arrive at your numbers? What are the assumptions?



0.50 oz Columbus [15.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min

0.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min



This can't be right. The Zymurgy article calls for:



3.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 5 157.1 IBUs

0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 6 28.9 IBUs

For the grains I just added them together to find the percentages.
For the hops I plugged all the known pounds in to BeerSmith and scaled down. The extract was a pure guess because I couldn't find anything reliable to scale it. I did read that 10ml of extract was equal to an oz. What really throws me off is the recipe says its 70 IBUs.
That synergy article is from 2009 I believe, this recipe is from Oct 2014.

 

[ultravista]

3/4 ounce of hops will not result in the bittering needed for this DIPA. The Zymurgy article is sound, meaning, it is the base we should use for formulating the updated recipe. Interestingly, Vinnie has opted for a higher mash temperature and ditched the CaraPils.

In an email exchange with him last year, he said exactly the same thing. You can forego the CaraPils and mash a few degrees higher ...

 

[Ski12568]

What do you think the IBUs are? Is 70 IBU at the top of the recipe the total not including the 20 min whirlpool additions?

Heads up: I just started brewing consistently the end of last year and have only been doing it 3 years total. I read as much as I can but I am still learning. I have never scaled a recipe this big.

 

[ultravista]

Yeah, that 70 IBU is whacky any way you look at it. I've had Pliny, and it's a hop monster. I regularly brew it with 8-9 ounces in the kettle and 4-5 dry hop.

 

[ultravista]

Can someone work out the 1500 and 450 grams of extract to pounds?

 

[orangehero]

1500 g AA = 52.9 oz AA = 5291 AAU
450 g AA = 15.9 oz AA = 1587 AAU

If you have 15% AA Columbus you would need 22 lbs and 6.6 lbs respectively.

You have to keep in mind that hop utilization is greater the bigger the system so the amounts don't scale linearly for the same effects especially when comparing 5 gallons to 65 barrels.

 

[robopp]

Can someone check my math. Assuming RO water, I'm getting the following water profile from the picture:

Ca2: 115
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 115
SO4: 115

Here are the numbers I'm using:

1300g mash
3# CaCl
3# Gypsum

2015g kettle
3# CaCl
2# Gypsum

Any idea what the '200grams directly to kettle @80min' is referring to?

 

[ultravista]

robopp - I think it is a pre-whirlpool kettle fining addition.

 

[JayDubWill]

Is everyone racking to secondary and then dry hopping or just doing it in primary?

 

[Ski12568]

I did the first dry hop in primary and transferred to secondary for the second dry hop.

 

[ultravista]

I've been dry hopping in the keg @ room temperature.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

one thing to take into consideration here, a lot are trying to adjust hops to match ibu, in reality you can have 100 ibu's and it can taste like 50 with all the whirlpool and dry hops, the hops mask the bitterness and you wouldn't be able to tell

I’ve done this several times and every time I think why I didn’t remember this, I have a very hoppy beer right now that should be 80 ibu but the bitterness it so weak I would say it’s around 30 by taste

 

[GRBC]

Interesting

 

[Alemaker77]

Can someone check my math. Assuming RO water, I'm getting the following water profile from the picture:

Ca2: 115
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 115
SO4: 115

Here are the numbers I'm using:

1300g mash
3# CaCl
3# Gypsum

2015g kettle
3# CaCl
2# Gypsum

Any idea what the '200grams directly to kettle @80min' is referring to?

These gypsum and chloride numbers are in line with Matt Brynildsons water treatment from Mitch Steels book. Calcium, sulfate and chloride all around 100ppm. Vinnie is very forthcoming with all aspects of his recipes except water treatment, only saying he does add gypsum to mash and kettle...never mentions chloride. I wonder if Vinnie has similar water treatment philosophy as Matt, since altering it could really change a beers profile? I have always noticed that plinys malt profile comes through in a good way.

 

[Alemaker77]

The dry hop schedule looks like Matt Brynildsons also. Two 3 day dry hops is what he uses for FW IPAs. There are some notes in the margins that we can't read though. It's interesting that the guys at Societe brewing also use two 3 day dry hops and one of the founders worked at Russian River. I think the industry is going shorter. Alchemist does 4 day dry hops.

 

[ultravista]

Interesting

Restrain yourself son.

 

[GRBC]

These gypsum and chloride numbers are in line with Matt Brynildsons water treatment from Mitch Steels book. Calcium, sulfate and chloride all around 100ppm. Vinnie is very forthcoming with all aspects of his recipes except water treatment, only saying he does add gypsum to mash and kettle...never mentions chloride. I wonder if Vinnie has similar water treatment philosophy as Matt, since altering it could really change a beers profile? I have always noticed that plinys malt profile comes through in a good way.

I get about about 140ppm each chloride & sulfate, both in the mash and in the kettle, using 2,400 gallons of water - 1,300 in the mash and 1,100 in the sparge. That's assuming they start w/RO.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XJD0JMH

Anyone know if FW uses RO water? I wonder what type of acid they are adding to the mash (the 1,250 ml)?

 

[mikeburns]

So 140ppm or so of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride?

Also when people say we need to scale the hops up a little to deal with the drop in efficiency how much are people meaning? 2%? or 5%?

Looking forward to brewing this!

 

[Yooper]

So 140ppm or so of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride?

Also when people say we need to scale the hops up a little to deal with the drop in efficiency how much are people meaning? 2%? or 5%?

Looking forward to brewing this!

No! That would make a very minerally beer.

Drop the chloride to 50 ppm or so, reduce the calcium to 100 ppm at a max, but go ahead and use as much sulfate as you like. I like it at 150 ppm or so, but many others will go up to 300 ppm of sulfate.

When you increase the sulfate, be sure to keep the chloride low to avoid a strong "minerally" flavor in the beer.

 

[mikeburns]

Thanks for responding Yooper! Been following your recipes and posts for a while now as it is great educational stuff! I'm just wondering about this as earlier on it was stated that Russian River were using much more balanced water (equal parts of sulfate and chloride). I normally have like a 4:1 ratio minimum so this is news for me in regards to water profiles for hoppy beers. Thanks for the insight around not getting too far over 50ppm of chloride, though I am sure I read somewhere that chloride was basically undetectable until around 150ppm or higher, though I totally trust your experience as I have never really taken it higher than around 70ppm.

So if it was close to balanced for this Pliney recipe, would it be 50ppm chloride to 50ppm sulfate in this particular case? Or 100ppm as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread?

Also I am from NZ so have never had Pliney, hence why I'm keen to brew a clone or similar beer.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for responding Yooper! Been following your recipes and posts for a while now as it is great educational stuff! I'm just wondering about this as earlier on it was stated that Russian River were using much more balanced water (equal parts of sulfate and chloride). I normally have like a 4:1 ratio minimum so this is news for me in regards to water profiles for hoppy beers. Thanks for the insight around not getting too far over 50ppm of chloride, though I am sure I read somewhere that chloride was basically undetectable until around 150ppm or higher, though I totally trust your experience as I have never really taken it higher than around 70ppm.

So if it was close to balanced for this Pliney recipe, would it be 50ppm chloride to 50ppm sulfate in this particular case? Or 100ppm as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread?

Also I am from NZ so have never had Pliney, hence why I'm keen to brew a clone or similar beer.

Pretend you never hear the words "chloride/sulfate ratio". The reason is this.

Say you have 5 ppm of chloride and 10 ppm of sulfate. That's 1:2.

Next, you have 150 ppm of chloride and 300 ppm of sulfate. That's 1:2.

You can see that the ratio doesn't matter, since the first has very little of either, while the second one might very well make an undrinkable beer.

Look at the total amounts, and in cases where the sulfate is over 100 ppm, definitely keep the chloride UNDER 100 ppm to avoid a very minerally flavor in the finished beer.

Here's my favorite "water for beginners" page: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge Scroll down a little bit and read about chloride and sulfate and what it does (and what it doesn't do). It's really helpful, and can help make water chemistry a little easier to understand.

 

[GRBC]

Yooper, the brew sheet posted earlier in this thread claims to be for PtE and appears to show about 150ppm of both chloride and sulfate in the mash & kettle. I agree the ratio is irrelevant. Am curious about your belief that it would be too mineral. Have you experienced that first hand?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, the brew sheet posted earlier in this thread claims to be for PtE and appears to show about 150ppm of both chloride and sulfate in the mash & kettle. I agree the ratio is irrelevant. Am curious about your belief that it would be too mineral. Have you experienced that first hand?

Only in judging in competition, not in my own beers.

 

[GRBC]

Just to add a little more context, I got the chance to chat with a local brewer earlier this year and he targets about 100ppm of both Sulfate & Chloride and his IPAs are delicious. 150 of each doesn't seem too extreme to me.

 

[atom]

i target 140 ppm cl in most of my beers and they are not minerally... (about 70 ppm SO4)