Planning First Lambic - Kriek

[tiggy]

I'm planning on trying my hand at a lambic later this summer and want to make sure I know I'm getting myself into before starting anything. If I'm investing this much time, I want to give myself every chance to succeed! My goal is to end up with something similar to Mort Subite Kriek.

For a recipe, I'm planning on using--
5.25 lbs. Pilsener
2.75 lbs. White Wheat
Hops to ~10 IBU (will use what's sitting in my freezer at the time)
Wyeast 3278 (Belgian Lambic)

I also have access to a pie cherry tree and am planning on using whole fresh fruit (including pits). If the cherries and brew timing don't match, I'll just freeze the cherries until needed.

Where I'm unsure is timing and process.
1) How long should I plan on letting it sit in primary before considering fruit?
2) When adding the fruit, should I just add it directly to the primary or rack to secondary?
3) How long should I plan to leave it on the fruit?
4) Is there anything else I'm forgetting or should be aware of?

I'll be using a glass carboy for both primary and secondary (if needed).

Thanks in advance for any guidance!

 

[badlee]

Not an expert,but from what I remember reading:
1) fruit lambics go for sux months to a year before being "fruited".
3) another six months to a year.
2) if you have enough space,add the fruit to primary,other wise add the fruit to your secondary FV and rack onto the fruit.

 

[Coff]

Mort Subite Lambic are pretty sweet, I'm not sure if they are pasteurized and back sweetened like Lindeman's but certainly appears that way to me. Not my cup of tea, I prefer a dry tart Kriek. Just something to think about if Mort Subite is a character youre going for.

I would go 1 year in primary for the Lambic, racked to secondary on top of your frozen then thawed cherries and age for ~6 months or until stable gravity. I like to wait until my funky fruit beers drop clear before I take a gravity reading.

 

[816North]

Your goal is a lofty one. If you can, make two batches. Do one now, one in 4-6 months. You may need to blend them. I have a flanders that is going now that is all funk and minimal sour. It's about 8 months old. It will need something with more complexity, but now I have to wait even longer to have another blending beer.

 

[tiggy]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

Sounds like I should plan on 12 months in primary and then at least 6 months on fruit. Assuming nothing goes too haywire, I'm tempted to rack to secondary and then use the yeast cake to start a new round. (Just need to convince the hubby to let me tie up two carboys or go acquire a new one...)

Also, I'm assuming 10 lbs (2 lb/gal) of cherries is a reasonable amount.

Coff, I'm surprised to find Mort Subite is sweetened. Seemed much drier than Lindeman's to me. Then again, I've only ever had it on tap and that may be different than what they ship.

 

[Agate]

If you read the fine print on the bottles, they say it contains artificial colors and sweeteners. Something like xylitol might work ok for this purpose, as it is used occasionally for sweetening ciders.

 

[Coff]

I had it on tap at the cafe in Brussels, it was room temp and cloyingly sweet. Just not my thing, but beer is subjective and not all beers are for everyone.

 

[tiggy]

I'll agree that everyone has different tastebuds!

At this point, I think I'll worry about the residual sweetness when we get to the bottling point... or in 18+ months. If needed, I can always backsweeten with something non-fermentable at that point. I'd rather taste first and see where we're at.

One more question on the yeast. Should I plan a starter for the Belgian Lambic or is this one that's best pitched straight from the package? I know you're not supposed to do starters on some of the mixed yeasts, but don't remember if this is one of those or not.

 

[Coff]

Just pitch the smack pack alone, Lambics are traditionally severely under-pitched (not pitched but you get the idea) with Sacchromyces. The smack pack will be fine.

 

[dantheman13]

Just pitch the smack pack alone, Lambics are traditionally severely under-pitched (not pitched but you get the idea) with Sacchromyces. The smack pack will be fine.

Yup, as Coff said, never make a starter with the mixed cultures (Roeselare, ECY01, WLP655, etc). A starter will allow the Sacch to grow, while the Brett and bacteria populations might only see some slow growth if any at all while the Sacch consumes the simple sugars. As Coff said, under pitching the Sacch gives you several benefits, including perhaps more esters for the Brett to consume later.

 

[tiggy]

Thanks everyone!

Looks like the next step in my process is just waiting for my quad to finish bulk aging to free up the carboy.

 

[badlee]

Best of luck with it

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks everyone!

Looks like the next step in my process is just waiting for my quad to finish bulk aging to free up the carboy.

That quad may still take a while. Perhaps consider buying another carboy to get started on your Kriek. Check Craigslist. I'm getting ready for brewing some sours and have been "collecting" carboys.

Lately I've "reverted" to using buckets for primaries. It takes a little getting used to IRT sampling (I sneak a skinny tube down the airlock grommet and suck beer out with a turkey baster followed by purging the headspace with some CO2) and racking without picking up trub (using a clip with a rubber band to keep the racking cane off the bottom and along the side).

 

[tiggy]

The quad is scheduled to finish six months of bulk aging in early June. I'm hoping it will be done!

 

[ChugachBrewing]

I would also freeze your cherries regardless of brew time. It breaks them down and also kills off any unwanted nasties. Although, there could be friends hiding in there...

 

[tiggy]

Well, the stars managed to align this past weekend and the lambic base is happily fermenting away in the basement. Signs of active fermentation in 12 hours and a nice krausen within 24. Cherries will be procured and frozen once they come into season later this summer.

Now to forget about it for the next 12 months (other than remembering to keep the air lock full!)

 

[homoeccentricus]

I'm planning on trying my hand at a lambic later this summer and want to make sure I know I'm getting myself into before starting anything. If I'm investing this much time, I want to give myself every chance to succeed! My goal is to end up with something similar to Mort Subite Kriek.

You should REALLY first try to get your hands on a good quality "Oude Kriek" ("old" kriek) from any of the following brewers: Boon, 3 Fonteinen, Cantillon, Oud Beersel, Timmermans, De Cam, etc., before you start making your own kriek. I think there may even be a Mort Subite Oude Kriek. There is an order of magnitude quality difference between those and the Mort Subite Kriek type of beer. Not sweet, no artificial flavorings, etc. The real tart barnyard horse blanket stuff.

 

[tiggy]

I've also had Boon and Timmermans (both sweetened and traditional) in Belgium. All were tasty (although the sweetened Timmermans was not my fav). I preferred the Boon over the traditional Timmermans but the Mort Subite is what stuck out in my mind. Perhaps it was the atmosphere/food pairing influencing me, but that's my “best kriek memory” from that trip.

Unfortunately, at least to me, beer doesn’t survive the trip across the pond very well. The shipping process just doesn’t seem to do them any favors so I hesitate to use imported beer as an example of what it “should be like”. Belgian beers just never taste quite the same to me here as I remember them doing in Belgium. Or maybe everything just tastes better in Europe…

We’ll see what I end up with in 18 months or so. For now, I’m just planning on letting it ride and checking periodically to keep the airlock full.

 

[andrewsbromley]

I'm in a similar situation with my lambic creation. I planned to brew up a 5 gallons batch later this summer. The plan was to let it bulk age for 1 year, then rack 3 gallons onto 6# cherries (or however much will fill up the 3G better bottle), 1 gallon into a 1 gallon growler, and bottle the remaining gallon. I was going to let the kriek age for an additional year and the 1 gallon for at least another year. My question is, will there be benefit to additional aging of the lambic if it's off its yeast cake? Should I try to transfer the yeast cake with it? Do I risk disrupting fermentation if I have to break the pellicle? This will be my first sour beer, so I'm trying to do a couple of different comparisons within one batch for consistency.

 

[homoeccentricus]

I assume you are not making a real lambic, i.e. in a wooden barrel?

 

[andrewsbromley]

No barrel for me. 6G better bottle for primary; the lambic aging for an additional year would be in a glass growler. I thought about adding some cubes; it wouldn't increase oxygen transfer at all, but it would the Brett would have something else to munch on and might give me some oak character as well (though I would likely boil the cubes for a good while prior to using in order to avoid transferring too much oak character).

 

[homoeccentricus]

I was just making sure. Us Belgians don't call it lambic unless the beer is in wooden barrels
Anyway, a guy on a Dutch language forum who makes his own lambic recommends that you leave the beer on the brett, as this is also what happens in wooden barrels.

 

[andrewsbromley]

So, do we think if I transfer some of the yeast cake when I transfer the 1 gallon into a separate container, it will continue to develop nicely? I'm sure it won't be quite the same as if I just let the whole 5G sit undisturbed for two years, but the question is whether or not I will get benefit from transferring and aging the 1 gallon by itself.

 

[dantheman13]

So, do we think if I transfer some of the yeast cake when I transfer the 1 gallon into a separate container, it will continue to develop nicely? I'm sure it won't be quite the same as if I just let the whole 5G sit undisturbed for two years, but the question is whether or not I will get benefit from transferring and aging the 1 gallon by itself.

I would say the 1 gallon will age by itself quite nicely. My 1 gallon sours have changed so much over the last 2.5 years. The longer they go, the better they seem to get. Using 1 gallon of old sour beer to blend with younger sours hits the mark for me, so I would encourage you to do this.

As far as transferring a little bit of the yeast cake, I would probably go for it, but I don't think it's necessary either. I've had sours age on yeast cakes for 2-2.5 years without issues. On one of them I believe that it went through a yeast autolysis phase where I could taste some slight meaty flavors, but that went away after a year or so. That was with a good 3/4 inch worth of yeast cake in a 1 gallon jug.

 

[tiggy]

Dredging this back up.

After time got away from us, we finally moved this onto the 10 lbs of frozen pie cherries on New Years. Thankfully everything fit quite neatly into the carboy. So it had been chilling for a little over a year and a half. It smelled fantastic when adding the cherries and has already started to take on a beautiful red hue.

At this point, the plan is to bottle in mid-April, so just over 3 months on the cherries. We'll add a little champagne yeast at the time, so it will hopefully be drinkable by Memorial Day.

Also started another batch and pitched a quart of yeast cake slurry and the dregs of a WL500 starter. The cherries are already in the freezer and hoping to not forget about it this time!

 

[Barc]

Having several fruit lambic-type beers under my belt, I feel like I can comment.

"Traditionally," the beer sits on the fruit for at least 6 months. There is no rule that says you can't do less time or more time, however the 6 month mark seems to be the "best" in terms of flavor, aroma, and overall extraction versus the time and space involved in leaving the beer for longer (this may be like whisky, however in that more time may make the beer better but there are diminishing returns after a certain point). Three months may not get as much extraction as you're looking for, especially when comparing it to something that is not only backsweetened but also has "extra" flavors in it, both artificial and natural if I had to guess. Be prepared to add some time, some flavoring, or both to get close.

Personally, I like to leave my lambics on the fruit for at least a year. The aroma is more or less gone by that point, though, however the flavors are still there but more incorporated into the beer, in my opinion. Something like a sour-cherry is likely not going to fall into the background as quickly as something like strawberries or apples, both of which I am familiar, however there is something to leaving the fruit long enough to get as much of the fruit as you are able to.

With that, I have a blackberry lambic "solera" that I am doing that currently has wild blackberries from 2013, 2014, and 2015 with several years of lambics on top (from 2011 on). The goal is to draw off roughly 5 gallons of "finished" beer per year and replace what is removed with "fresh" lambic(s) and the season's blackberries. Blackberries are not known for their overwhelming flavor in the first place and I add at least 2lbs per gallon of lambic. As expected, the blackberry flavor and color is very subtle. As the beer develops, there is a distinct shift from aroma and flavor from the fruit to it being incorporated into the beer more thoroughly and becoming "one with the beer."

Your results may vary.

 

[sweetcell]

barc, thanks for sharing your experience.

Personally, I like to leave my lambics on the fruit for at least a year. The aroma is more or less gone by that point, though, however the flavors are still there but more incorporated into the beer, in my opinion.

the loss of aroma is reason enough for me to limit my fruiting to 3 months. i want my kriek to smell like cherries. a lot.

Something like a sour-cherry is likely not going to fall into the background as quickly as something like strawberries or apples, both of which I am familiar,

it definitely doesn't fade, but it does change. i guess it comes down to preference: do you want bright and fresh; or mellowed and incorporated?

however there is something to leaving the fruit long enough to get as much of the fruit as you are able to.

in my opinion, there are diminishing returns when aging on fruit for a year. you are indeed extracting every last bit of flavor from the cherries, but at the cost of losing aroma and having the flavor change. again, a preference thing.

i have had both my kriek, and commercial krieks, both fresh and aged. i really prefer fresh, but results and preferences may vary

 

[Barc]

I sometimes let my commercial sours sit around a long time when I buy them, anyway. I figure they're going to change, flavors will meld, aromas will shift away from fruit, etc.

Bottling at 3 months wouldn't be that much different than bottling at a year, for me, in terms of how much I would drink over that time. I can and do bottle a few bottles to have in the near term (a couple of months) to make sure I don't need to bottle a batch "right now." I've tested my beers at a couple of months out to a couple of years on the fruit. And for varying lengths of time without fruit. I don't stick by a hard and fast rule in terms of how long to leave anything in the fermenter. When it is done, I bottle or blend it.

 

[tiggy]

Interesting discussion. From the research I've done, I usually saw the recommendation of 3-6 months on the fruit. The shorter time
frame typically left more aroma and I saw some debate on if the flavor started to fade if left longer. Initially, our main concern was getting 18 months on the beer to give the bugs time to work their magic. Needless to say, we've already passed that mark!

In reality, the 3 month mark is when we'll start to consider bottling. Life has a nasty habit of getting in the way and it may end up being closer to 6 months.

This serves as a good reminder to give it a taste test to see if we're happy with it before racking to the bottling bucket.

 

[messiah]

Bottling at 3 months would make me worried about some bug having not done its work yet, but the idea is attractive to me, as my patience is wearing thin. I would really love to bottle the Kriek I have been working on. I started reusing the bug/yeast cake to keep sours in rotation so I wont be as impatient in the future. Granted, they will probably taste different due to different bug and yeast ratios, which I kind of welcome as a fun experiment.

I am late to the early part of the convo, but I used torrified wheat in my "lambics" since it has not been malted. I feel like this brings me closer to a turbid mash, which I am not really interested in doing. Too lazy.

 

[chisena]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1456114216.135123.jpg
Just racked my Kriek over cherries today after 6 months in the primary. Had some leftover that I racked onto peaches. Gonna let it sit until mid August '16 before bottling.

 

[tiggy]

Bottled this up last weekend after about 3.5 months on the cherries. Flavor and aroma were absolutely fantastic in the warm, flat sample. Ended up with about 5 gallons on the nose after trub/cherry loss. Very much looking forward to trying the finished version.

Added champagne yeast to speed the carbing and underprimed a bit in case there were any residual sugars still left from the cherries. If we run into overcarbed issues, I have a lager freezer we can store the rest of the bottles in.

Second batch of lambic base is already going in the basement and we're debating starting up a third so we can get a bit more of a pipeline going and have some extra base to experiment with.

Thanks for all of the advice along the way!

 

[Yeastieboy]

Tiggy, congrats on getting it into bottles! Glad it's tasting great!

I kind of expected to see some activity and then the beer to reform a pellicle after racking over the fruit. After 2.5 months it looks pretty bored in there. No new pellicle. Is that normal?

 

[burninator]

Tiggy, congrats on getting it into bottles! Glad it's tasting great!

I kind of expected to see some activity and then the beer to reform a pellicle after racking over the fruit. After 2.5 months it looks pretty bored in there. No new pellicle. Is that normal?

Are the cherries floating? Fermentation of the sugar in the cherries may have just created a nice blanket of CO2 over the beer, and the microbes don't feel the need to form a pellicle.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I used cherry purée in the 5G carboy but no, it seems to have settled. I did have 1G left over that I racked over fresh peaches. Those were on the bottom at first and many are now floating.

 

[tiggy]

Carbed, this is fantastic! We're really pleased with how it turned out. Only thing is that the carbonation level is a bit light. We purposefully underprimed a bit to avoid bottle bombs in case there were remaining sugars from the cherries. Currently, it's great as is, but I'd prefer it with a touch more carbonation. Will probably be hoarding this one as the next batch still has a year to go!

Yeastieboy, ours never formed a second pellicle. Since we used whole cherries, half floated the entire time while half settled on the bottom. The old pellicle ended up on top of the floaters. The cherries did kick off a small secondary fermentation, but nothing very dramatic.

One suggestion would be to put something on the racking cane to filter when you go to transfer. We used a piece of fine mesh and it helped dramatically. We still ended up with some trub and cherry bits in the bottling bucket, but nothing too dramatic.

 

[Yeastieboy]

@tiggy That's great! Perhaps the carbonation will continue to increase a bit over time. How long did you let the secondary fermentation with cherries go before bottling?

 

[tiggy]

We were on the cherries for about 3.5 months and have been in bottles for about a month now. Since the beer was 18 months old when we added the cherries, the concern was that the brett wouldn't get through all of the cherry sugars and risk bottle bombs. So there's a chance we could get some more carb in the future, but I think it's about where it's going to be.

Beer has a huge cherry flavor and aroma. We'll see how this changes over time. We'll be hoarding these until the next batch is ready about this time next year.

 

[sweetcell]

Since the beer was 18 months old when we added the cherries, the concern was that the brett wouldn't get through all of the cherry sugars and risk bottle bombs.

that was a misplaced concern. there definitely still was viable brett in there. in 3.5 months the brett would have chewed through all the sugars. 6 weeks was probably plenty.

We'll be hoarding these until the next batch is ready about this time next year.

my experience with fruited sour beer is that it peaks shortly after full carbonation is reached, then is good for a few months, then drops off. the first kriek that i made was amazing from month 1-5, good months 6 and 7, and by month 8 it had started to fade. like you i planned to ration these beers. at the 12 month mark they weren't nearly as good as they were in the first 4-5 months. so YMMV, but i prefer my fruited sours on the fresh side.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Listen to sweetcell out proving everyone wrong! [emoji6]