Pitching a Barleywine on a Yeast Cake

[humulene]

Hi All

I have been reading about pitching onto a yeast cake and am looking for a bit of advice. I currently have a "kitchen sink" IPA in the fermenter- just a hodge podge of stuff I had on hand. I used Wyeast 1272. The OG was 1.070 and it's supposed to hit 1.015.

My first question is, can I dump a barleywine on top of this? I am worried about over pitching but I thought that due to the high OG of a barleywine, perhaps it would be ok. I'm not going to wash the yeast first.

Another question is about this yeast in particular. Does anyone have experience brewing a high gravity beer with this? I would be shooting for the very top of it's alcohol tolerance range. Somewhere around 9.5-10%. Would it taste good in a barleywine?

And finally, any other considerations that I'm not... well, considering?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

You will be aging it for a long period of time? The extra hop material left in the trub after the IPA may give it more/extra hop character so it might be a bit vegetal for the start of its life (the barleywine). Edit: Clarification, aging the BW on the yeast cake for a long period of time. You may want to transfer once you are sure the yeast are all finished.

How long has the IPA been on the yeast cake? If its a relaly old yeast cake that could be bad, but being an IPA I'd bet you havent had it in the fermenter for a very long period of a time.

Do you have temp control and a blow off tube? Even a swamp cooler, you'll want to baby it after pouring the BW into the fermenter, the yeast could take off within 1-4 hours (I had a pitch on top of a yeast cake take off in less than 30 minutes). The temp will take off through the roof, so make sure you get the BW cooler than what your ferment temp will be before pouring onto the yeast cake, and baby the swamp cooler it will get HOT. Also try and hook up a blow off tube or leave a good bit of head space. It takes off so quickly and violently it could start blowing off even if the previous batch didn't blow off.

Pitching on a yeast cake will tend to get you higher attenuation rates. The huge yeast populations rip through the wort very very quickly and probably will blow past the alcohol tolerance levels. So expect at least a couple more points of attenuation.

 

[giraffe]

Depending on the amount of yeast generated in the previous batch, it could still be a huge over pitch for a barleywine. Calculators like mrmalty have a calculator for harvested all trubby slurry: you can pour off some of the cake.

Lo-fi solution: use the calculator and determine the volume of slurry needed. Take a spare carboy and pour that much water in it to see what it looks like. Look at how much yeast cake you have in the other carboy. If its like 300% more, pour off some of the cake until it looks right. Its not the most accurate, but this is really simple and will avoid any infection risks, and avoid the worst of overpitches.

 

[solbes]

I did this for my 12% BW on Bells yeast from a porter. Worked perfect and hit my FG numbers right where I wanted, which was 1.025. Do control your temps carefully and install a blow off tube.

 

[JonM]

As mentioned above , it'll take off like a rocket in a couple hours. Be ready with the blowoff tube and the temp control, because it'll get wild and crazy. But it'll work.

 

[JKaranka]

You could try a double drop to both get it fermenting and to avoid the hop flavours. Seems like a good scenario to try one!

Note, in case you don't know double drops: you add the wort to the yeast cake, and after 16-32 hours, once fermentation has started and still ongoing, you transfer and aereate the wort to a second fermenter. It will leave some of the trub behind, take the yeast and bring in enough oxygen for the fermentation to be strong.

 

[Jonkl]

I've been told that, if you want high ABV tolerance, 1272 is definitely a good way to go. Super tolerant yeast. And I imagine even moreso on a yeast cake.

 

[humulene]

I do have a way to control temps and a blow off tube so I'm good there. The temp will already be dropped for cold crashing the IPA.

I looked at Mr Malty to try to get an idea of how much to use but I'm not sure I understand what it's telling me. If I enter an OG of 1.1 for a 5 gallon batch it says I only need 164 ml of yeast. That seems like far less than I would get from pitching on a yeast cake. Am I reading it right?

As for the higher attenuation rate, should I aim for a higher FG or just do the recipe as planned? I don't want the BW to be overly dried out.

I do plan on aging the BW in bottles so I'm not too worried about hop flavors but it's good to know that the trub may affect the taste in the short term. I hadn't thought about that. Never heard of a double drop either.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I appreciate the help!

 

[bschot]

I played with Mr Malty and got the same answers. Which 163 mL works out to 5.5 oz and change.

I would use a sanitized coffee cup (I like the handle) and pitch a whole cups worth or 1.5 cups worth. You planned on dumping on the yeast cake anyway so a little over-pitch won't be bad, especially in a huge beer.

Pitching the right amount of yeast lets it grow through the proper phases such as the lag phase. The lag phase lets the yeast get acclimated to wort and ready to grow the colony before they take off fermenting and multiplying. Here is an article from the people who should know yeast, Wyeast.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/he-yeast-fundamentals.cfm

If you don't read the whole article at least read about the lag phase. The article mentions oxygen and how during the lag phase the yeast absorb it to get ready for the log phase.

So unless you have a cool oxygenation tool, do as I do and use a sanitized whisk. I like to sanitize the entire whisk and my hand, so if I accidentally touch the wort I sleep better at night. Unfortunately, if you are using a carboy or a vessel with a small neck you will have to resort to some other method. I start out gently to get a little foam going and as the foam builds I go faster and faster until I have about an inch or two, maybe even three inches, of foam. I wish I had a dissolved oxygen meter but alas no; maybe Santa will bring me one.

I like to try to pitch the calculated amount as often as I can. I think it helps deliver the beer I designed. It also gives me real data as to why something worked or didn't work. It really helps when I want to repeat an awesome beer or something like it.

I hope this helps



-Brian

 

[Mer-man]

You could try a double drop to both get it fermenting and to avoid the hop flavours. Seems like a good scenario to try one!

Note, in case you don't know double drops: you add the wort to the yeast cake, and after 16-32 hours, once fermentation has started and still ongoing, you transfer and aereate the wort to a second fermenter. It will leave some of the trub behind, take the yeast and bring in enough oxygen for the fermentation to be strong.

This sounds like a great way to prepare for harvesting the yeast afterward.

And I will THIRD the sentiment that a barleywine with a large pitch of healthy yeast will produce a huge amount of heat.

 

[giraffe]

I do have a way to control temps and a blow off tube so I'm good there. The temp will already be dropped for cold crashing the IPA.

I looked at Mr Malty to try to get an idea of how much to use but I'm not sure I understand what it's telling me. If I enter an OG of 1.1 for a 5 gallon batch it says I only need 164 ml of yeast. That seems like far less than I would get from pitching on a yeast cake. Am I reading it right?

Yep. Accounting for a higher trub rate as its an ipa in there before, I get 180ml. You could go 200-250ml to be safe (and mr malty usually recommends on the high end of pitch rates). A whole yeast cake is probably at least a liter; id spill most of it out.