PicoBrew Zymatic

[solinvicta]

All right - kind of stumped. I added a glycol reservoir, and was able to fix fatal error #1 enough to brew a batch. But, turns out I had a small leak. Figured out the clamps to fix that and was able to run a full cleaning cycle. No leaks, but after sitting overnight, I'm getting the error again. I've taken it apart, gotten all the air out that I can (nothing obvious, and definitely nothing around the temperature probe), and put it back together. Still getting fatal error #1 ! This is with the same keg that I'd ran the cleaning cycle on, and it seems to be circulating fine, so I don't think that is the issue.

 

[Mike Howard]

There are numerous reasons you can get a Fatal Error #1, most likely introduced air into the suction line, followed by glycol. So it's always best to assume the easy ones first before digging back into the lower end.

Just to be sure, take your poppets, on both the keg and the connections, apart and check for obstructions. Also, recheck the filter. Make sure all the seals are good as I've found that they eventually go bad.

After that, put the machine in test mode and check for good pump circulation and temperature probe function. During cycling make sure you don't have any air leaks on the suction side. Use the "Test Keg Pump" and the "Test Drain Pump" when using a keg with at least a couple of gallons of water in there and no grains but all the screens.

To enter Test Mode, turn the machine off, then depress AND HOLD the rotary knob and turn the power back on. Wait until you see the logo and then release the rotary knob. To exit Test Mode just turn the machine off.

 

[solinvicta]

Thanks for the insights! I took the keg poppets apart (no issues), and cleaned the screen on the intake (some grain, nothing crazy). No air bubbles on the intake side (after the initial purge) - I do see some bubbles on the output side, but assume that's normal...

Circulating seems to work pretty well - the part that is confusing for me is that the "circulate" feature normalizes temperatures between the probes, so it seems like the heat exchange is working. Not sure why this doesn't normalize them enough during the run itself...if I can't sort it out, can I just raise the temperature more slowly (adding step-wise things to the recipe rather than "straight to 153 F!") to make things work?

Another thing that I'm still suspicious of is that the new lines I added are pretty thin-walled. No issues on the side going from the reservoir to the heat exchanger, but I feel like the input to the pump is slightly sucked in by pressure from the pump. It doesn't seem to be a tight kink, but I'm wondering if it's restricting glycol flow enough to prevent efficient heat exchange.

 

[solinvicta]

Is P3 / heat pump the glycol pump? I ran through the full test and heard the P1 and P2 pumps kicking on, but didn't hear anything new for P3. Wasn't sure if this was just the general background noise from the glycol pump, or if I should have heard something new...

 

[Mike Howard]

First let's address the new glycol tubing you installed. You need to use Food Grade, High Temp Silicone, 1/8 inch thick wall...so 1/4" x 1/2" and 1/2" x 3/4". It's easy to find on Amazon like this here: Silicone Rubber Tube Food Grade

The Glycol pump runs continuously, you can't turn it off or on. That's a safety feature so you don't burn up your RIMS tube.

You could add additional steps to your recipes, but that should not be necessary. The problem has to be with the new components that you installed, or a temp sensor is not working correctly. There are three temp sensors; One in the Wort line on top left of the machine, the one at the Tee in the lower unit for the HEX and one attached directly to the RIMS tube under the insulation. I've only ever heard of one guy that had a sensor go bad.

A quick and easy test is to put hot water in your keg and perform a circulate test. The results you are looking for is as follows; FIrst sensor to show the temp changing is the Wort sensor, second should be the HEX sensor and finally the RIMS sensor. Eventually they should all normalize and track each other.

 

[solinvicta]

Thanks very much for the suggestions! I'll try the test that you've suggested with hot water. I'm 100% sure it isn't an "air in the loop" situation at this point (the last place I was thinking was trapped air in the heat exchanger itself. I removed it, tapped, it and flipped it around so I'm pretty confident there's no lingering air.

The tubing I'd used was thin wall - I was able to find 1/8" wall on Amazon in a short length, so I'll try that out while I have everything apart. I was using a nylon barbed elbow for the bend too - I'm going to order a brass elbow as well to have the option (not sure if it is necessary or not...)

 

[Mike Howard]

Definitely switch out the plastic fittings if you can. Brass probably works fine but I opted for Stainless Steel like this: ELBOW

 

[Ranger2295]

That sounds amazing, once again thanks for your work!

Do you have any idea when you fell comfortable releasing your work?
I personally would be happy about version 3 or 4 to minimise your work load.
Or even 5: Just the schematics.

Putting everything open source would be amazing and would enable other Devs to help out with the codebase and testing.
And issue tracker and wiki so the problems and the knowledge is not spread out across multiple monster threads in this forum.

And I think nobody would resent you charging a bit of a markup on the hardware. ^^

@Mike Howard did you ever complete this? I'd be interested in buying one ready to go

 

[mrjirey]

I added a reservoir tube (like a few members did in the facebook group) on two zymatics I was rehabing...
For a test run, I ran a quick step to heat to boil & circulate a gallon of water +cascade through it, without having the hose clamp on the barb at the end of the line. About 15 minutes in, I heard a loud pop and saw liquid every where (I replaced all the wort lines in the system, and at first thought it was one of them, but it turned out to be the glycol plug) - looks like as the glycol gets there's pressure build up - maybe some of the pex fittings from the factory aren't 100% tight and small leaking/air gets sucked in (the glycol that flew out was ~4 inches of the 3/8" ID line) ? Just a theory for the missing glycol.
View attachment 761540

I noted that my glycol was being lost through the heat exchanger. It was actually passing internally to the wort. I replaced the exchanger with a 14 plate (yes it fits, but you can also use a 12 plate one) instead of the 10 plate one. I think my exchanger was damage from the top section mounting screw hitting it. I could also tast a slight hint of glycol in my batches. I also noted that my plastic T connectors were cracked so I replaced them with brass ones

 

[mrjirey]

My setup is looking great with everyone’s help.
Thank you!

 

[Mike Howard]

@Mike Howard did you ever complete this? I'd be interested in buying one ready to go

I got 99% complete before work consumed all my time, we are in the process of opening a second location. Once that is done, I should be able to revisit this, say in a month or two.

 

[solinvicta]

Update on the Fatal Error #1 troubleshooting. I replaced all the thin-walled tubing, and the new tubing is holding up to the suction much better. I ran the test, adding 90 degree water to the keg. First the wort temp increased, then the heater temp, and they normalized at about 90 F. The board temp didn't change above 62, which was about ambient for the basement.

Still getting error #1 after about a minute and a half of heating the water with a target temp of 150. I'm pretty confident there aren't major air issues (topped off glycol, got rid of bubbles, re-topped off), but since I just swapped all the tubing, this will be the next thing I rule out.

 

[Mike Howard]

@solinvicta At what temp are you getting the FATAL ERROR #1?

Make sure the connectors for the temp probes are connected to the right spots on the board and that they are secure. When you go into Test Mode and select LOCATE TEMP SENSORS, make sure each sensor is listed. It's not important for the values that are listed, but each sensor should have a valid value.

A further check for temp sensors is to fill your keg with hot water like before, run the circulate mode until temps begin to normalize. Stop the circulate, turn off the Zymatic and then enter the Test Mode.

Select TEST TEMP SENSORS and make sure they are all close to the same value. Let it sit there for a minute and make sure they all move in the same direction as the liquid begins to cool. This menu item shows you all three temp sensors that are of concern.

Board temp is not a concern as it isn't used for ERROR #1.

As far as air pockets in the glycol line, you'll know as the machine is much louder, cavitates and surges as it tries to circulate the glycol fluid. Also, I have to ask, but what was the ratio of Glycol to Water mix that you used to replace, or top off, your HEX loop fluid?

 

[Mike Howard]

I noted that my glycol was being lost through the heat exchanger. It was actually passing internally to the wort. I replaced the exchanger with a 14 plate (yes it fits, but you can also use a 12 plate one) instead of the 10 plate one. I think my exchanger was damage from the top section mounting screw hitting it. I could also tast a slight hint of glycol in my batches. I also noted that my plastic T connectors were cracked so I replaced them with brass ones

That's exactly why I included that in the last section of the Glycol Procedure. I'd say the QA was a bit lacking on these units.

 

[solinvicta]

@solinvicta At what temp are you getting the FATAL ERROR #1?

Make sure the connectors for the temp probes are connected to the right spots on the board and that they are secure. When you go into Test Mode and select LOCATE TEMP SENSORS, make sure each sensor is listed. It's not important for the values that are listed, but each sensor should have a value.

A further check for temp sensors is to fill your keg with hot water like before, run the circulate mode until temps begin to normalize. Stop the circulate, turn off the Zymatic and then enter the Test Mode.

Select TEST TEMP SENSORS and make sure they are all close to the same value. Let it sit there for a minute and make sure they all move in the same direction as the liquid begins to cool. This menu item shows you all three temp sensors that are of concern.

As far as air pockets in the glycol line, you'll know as the machine is much louder, cavitates and surges as it tries to circulate the glycol fluid. Also, I have to ask, but what was the ratio of Glycol to Water mix that you used to replace, or top off, your HEX loop fluid?

Thanks! Have everything apart again (to check for air), but I'll run the probe checks once it's reassembled.

For the glycol fluid I've been using 1 part propylene glycol to every 2 parts distilled water. The temperature issue so far seems to be more a result of time than temperature...things start to error about 1.5 or 2 minutes after heating. This is usually a wort temp between 70 and 90, depending on whether I've run it a few times (after circulating). Typically, at that point the heat and wort temps are 10 to 15 degrees apart, and converge again after circulating for 3-4 minutes.

 

[Mike Howard]

Thanks! Have everything apart again (to check for air), but I'll run the probe checks once it's reassembled.

For the glycol fluid I've been using 1 part propylene glycol to every 2 parts distilled water. The temperature issue so far seems to be more a result of time than temperature...things start to error about 1.5 or 2 minutes after heating. This is usually a wort temp between 70 and 90, depending on whether I've run it a few times (after circulating). Typically, at that point the heat and wort temps are 10 to 15 degrees apart, and converge again after circulating for 3-4 minutes.

That's why I want you to run the tests. We need to make sure the RIMS sensor is working correctly. From what I gather, the two temps that you see on the main screen are HEX loop and WORT loop, the RIMS sensor is hidden until you access the TEST MENU.

Ok on the glycol ratio, if you need to err, do so on the glycol side and not the water side. 1/3 to 2/3 is right, but up to 50/50 is ok, though not ideal.

 

[solinvicta]

@Mike Howard - ran the tests. All temperature sensors turned up when I ran the locate test, and after a thorough circulation with hot water, the sensors all read the same temp (~92 degrees) so I think all the sensors are working.

I've pulled a graph from the wigem server, and it looks like heat loop #1 and wort are tracking each other pretty well, but heat loop #2 is the one that is getting ahead of things and tripping the error.

 

[Mike Howard]

Maybe your HEX is plugged up? Heat Loop 2 looks normal and should track higher than the other two, as I believe that is actually the RIMS sensor. However, if the RIMS is heating up that fast and that heat is not being transferred to the Heat Loop quickly enough, that to me indicates something wrong at the HEX.

Also, did you install the Reservoir mod? If so, did you insulate it? And tell me that it is located between the HEX and the Glycol pump.

If you remove the HEX and find no obstructions, you might want to remove the Reservoir Mod and retry the tests. When I first added the reservoir I had the brass filter in place and my machine did not like that. I've since switched it out, I know several others who have the mod installed, but I'm not sure about the exact reservoir that is being used. That is definitely still experimental and we are searching for the best reservoir for the mod.

 

[solinvicta]

I did install the reservoir mod, but didn't insulate it or remove the brass filter.

I've just taken the reservoir out of the loop and that seems to have resolved the issue (I'll post a graph when it's done, but it's already way farther along than previously). I unscrewed the reservoir and the brass filter seemed slightly corroded already, so I'm just guessing that it was creating too much resistance in the loop for the glycol to pump effectively.

I think my plan now is, if it operates ok without the reservoir, I'll just set that aside and try re-installing it the next time I actually need to top off the glycol.

 

[chiefwigms]

Do you need to add it between the HEX & glycol pump? I ran a deep clean cycle (V6 on the server) and haven't had any issues (granted I haven't done a brew yet).. I added mine like this (pic from a facebook post), since there was a lot more room to cut the tubing:

 

[solinvicta]

Okay, I couldn't help myself, so I reinstalled the reservoir without the brass filter, and it looks like it's working! I took a bunch of pictures during the install, so if things actually work out, I'll try to write up a guide to share.

 

[Mike Howard]

Okay, I couldn't help myself, so I reinstalled the reservoir without the brass filter, and it looks like it's working! I took a bunch of pictures during the install, so if things actually work out, I'll try to write up a guide to share.

Great, I was hoping that the brass filter was your issue.

 

[Mike Howard]

Do you need to add it between the HEX & glycol pump? I ran a deep clean cycle (V6 on the server) and haven't had any issues (granted I haven't done a brew yet).. I added mine like this (pic from a facebook post), since there was a lot more room to cut the tubing:

I'm not going to say that it is a MUST for the air trap to be placed in between the outlet of the HEX and the inlet of the Pump. My reasoning for doing so was that I was trying to prevent pump cavitation at the source and reduce the amount of air getting to the RIMS tube. When I replaced my RIMS heating element, it was charred and my guess is that it was from being exposed to air, may even be the reason that my RIMS heater failed.

At this point, since we are basically in discovery mode, I would say that as long as you have a way to prevent air from building up and cycling through the loop, you are better off than not having anything.

 

[Ranger2295]

@mrjirey helped me bring this baby back to life with the Raspberry Pi!! Was way easier then I thought and going to send a brew down range this week for the first time in 5+ years.

 

[Ranger2295]

After 5 years she’s back!

 

[solinvicta]

Hi everyone - I've taken a stab at writing up the procedure for installing a reservoir in a Zymatic. Have a look and feel free to suggest changes for clarity!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWemd4FcLKER0PXZ1ZecyleImDSdIIqdLWwoytYM7rM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Mike Howard]

@solinvicta I should have a chance to review it later this week and get back to you. But thanks for putting this together. Any time we can have hard documentation for these machines is a good thing.

 

[adguyer]

I getting server errors on both machines... It must be them or my WIFI sucks

 

[adguyer]

I added a reservoir tube (like a few members did in the facebook group) on two zymatics I was rehabing...
For a test run, I ran a quick step to heat to boil & circulate a gallon of water +cascade through it, without having the hose clamp on the barb at the end of the line. About 15 minutes in, I heard a loud pop and saw liquid every where (I replaced all the wort lines in the system, and at first thought it was one of them, but it turned out to be the glycol plug) - looks like as the glycol gets there's pressure build up - maybe some of the pex fittings from the factory aren't 100% tight and small leaking/air gets sucked in (the glycol that flew out was ~4 inches of the 3/8" ID line) ? Just a theory for the missing glycol.
View attachment 761540

I just did the same exact thing. I used a check value rather than a plug. But, I had not tightened it thinking I'll need to fill it again. at about 180 degrees, I heard a pop and it shot glycol all over my dining room. Can tell we are not engineers, Water doesn't expand, but air does!

 

[adguyer]

FYI, I got the reservoir installed and it sucks! The threads on the bottom and the top are different. To use the plug on the top I had to add a ton of thread tape and more than one try with leaks to get it to hold, Then the barb installed on the bottom o-ring was too small for the hole. So, once stretched into place, there was not enough meat to hold water. I had to get a slightly larger o-ring and it was same thickness, but slightly larger diameter so it didn't stretch as much. Spent the whole day working on it and seems to be working, but not without major issues. I removed the internal parts of the black junk tank so I could use the out port rather than the in. I also offset the holes, so the tee could run behind the wort. Moved the wort over one hole and reused the heat exchange to pump hose. Once proven not leaking at temp, I'll add ziptie mounts and set the black junk and the tee in proper place. I also know I could have used an elbow for the feed, but it worked on the slow bend and allows me to raise the black junk tank for leak repairs! LOL

 

[adguyer]

So, as it cooled from 207, it is pulling air through the check value. Which I expected. But, it went from 1 inch hose air pocket to about 10 inches. I will top it off again and run it again. It is better than creating a large vacuum. Amazon.com: EVIL ENERGY 10mm 3/8'' Fuel Line One Way Non Return Check Valve Oil Petrol Diesel Aluminium Alloy Black Pack of 2 : Automotive

 

[Mike Howard]

Just my 2 cents, but that check valve could become a major issue over time. And if you wanted to create a way to refill easily you might have used that other port on the reservoir, rather than adding a tee, and another failure point in your loop. The less connections the better IMO. I think some folks on here have just added a tee between the HEX and Pump and ran a long line that runs to the top, without the reservoir, and just capped it off with a plug.

I agree that the particular reservoir we are using is not ideal, but some of us have been unable to find a different one small enough to fit inside the skin.

And water does expand when it gets hot, about 4% or so I believe, its the principle that your car uses for the antifreeze overflow/expansion tank. Air compresses and creates pressure, if everything is not tight, you are gonna have issues.

 

[adguyer]

Just my 2 cents, but that check valve could become a major issue over time. And if you wanted to create a way to refill easily you might have used that other port on the reservoir, rather than adding a tee, and another failure point in your loop. The less connections the better IMO. I think some folks on here have just added a tee between the HEX and Pump and ran a long line that runs to the top, without the reservoir, and just capped it off with a plug.

I agree that the particular reservoir we are using is not ideal, but some of us have been unable to find a different one small enough to fit inside the skin.

And water does expand when it gets hot, about 4% or so I believe, its the principle that your car uses for the antifreeze overflow/expansion tank. Air compresses and creates pressure, if everything is not tight, you are gonna have issues.

If you put on both port barbs on the width is wider than the space. I ordered a different version that has a top port too, and a proper barbed drain port with shutoff. So, yes the tee will be eliminated, I'm going to try and weld the input barb or bend it and plug it. The check value was never a plan to keep attached. And even if I did find it convenient, I'd have it plugged after it. The check valve is made for motor oil too and that gets pretty hot. It is also all metal structure. The one thing I can't wrap my head around, why didn't they make or use a small expansion tank? I also wonder if you run the fill tube in another outside port connector like the wort lines and just use a small radiator overflow tank that hangs from the top lip... I also thought that just replacing the tee on the sensor to a 4 way and run the fill tube from there with a radiator overflow tank therefore eliminating pressure and air at the same time. I also considered a barbed plug into a bleeder valve like brakes or an oil fired boiler has.

 

[Bmwcrazyman]

I’m picking up a zymatic Friday that has sat for a few years. @Mike Howard can I get the glycol refill instructions? I’m sure it will need a top off from sitting

Also, how many feet of 1/4” and 3/8” Tubing would I need along with tees and 90s fittings to replace everything?

one last thing, it doesn’t come with the keg. I have several 3 gallon kegs already do i need a 5 gallon size to work properly?

 

[adguyer]

I added a reservoir tube (like a few members did in the facebook group) on two zymatics I was rehabing...
For a test run, I ran a quick step to heat to boil & circulate a gallon of water +cascade through it, without having the hose clamp on the barb at the end of the line. About 15 minutes in, I heard a loud pop and saw liquid every where (I replaced all the wort lines in the system, and at first thought it was one of them, but it turned out to be the glycol plug) - looks like as the glycol gets there's pressure build up - maybe some of the pex fittings from the factory aren't 100% tight and small leaking/air gets sucked in (the glycol that flew out was ~4 inches of the 3/8" ID line) ? Just a theory for the missing glycol.
View attachment 761540

Where did you get the 3/8 barb? I keep seeing them online but they want like $10 + to ship a $1 item...

 

[adguyer]

I’m picking up a zymatic Friday that has sat for a few years. @Mike Howard can I get the glycol refill instructions? I’m sure it will need a top off from sitting

Also, how many feet of 1/4” and 3/8” Tubing would I need along with tees and 90s fittings to replace everything?

one last thing, it doesn’t come with the keg. I have several 3 gallon kegs already do i need a 5 gallon size to work properly?

I'd just use it until it errors out. Not server or connection errors, but heating loops errors. The silicone in the front by the drip tray is a pain in the butt to take apart and put back together. You almost feel like you're going to break it.

 

[Mike Howard]

@Bmwcrazyman First thing to do is start it up and put it through several good cleaning cycles to see how it behaves. I'm sure it will need a topoff, but its good to make sure its working or not working.

After that, I would go ahead and open it up and look at the lower end to top off glycol, replace the hoses and fittings and basically give it a good tune up. You'll also likely want to inspect the Stepper Arm and possibly relube it.

I'll PM you on the procedure.

 

[Mike Howard]

@adguyer Several of us have a bulkhead fitting, mounted high up on the left side of the unit which runs to the reservoir for filling (this does require punching a hole in the skin), others just have a line running up to where the stepper arm is with a plug (no hole required). I also have my reservoir mounted upside down so the ports are a little better located. If you search this thread, I think one of the guys shows pictures on how that setup looks.

Obviously this modification is still being worked on and any new ideas are great. But like any new mod, testing and fabrication is always required. Originally, I had a different reservoir mounted outside the unit, but that was cumbersome. If you do go down the path of a different design, document your efforts for the group.

The biggest problem is finding a reservoir/expansion tank that will fit somewhere in the unit that allows the expanding fluid to be contained and prevent air from entering the RIMS tube and the Glycol motor.

 

[chiefwigms]

Where did you get the 3/8 barb? I keep seeing them online but they want like $10 + to ship a $1 item...

Tee: (5) 3/8" BARB TEE. STAINLESS STEEL FITTINGS TEES | eBay
Plugs: (5) 3/8" BARB PLUGS. STAINLESS STEEL FITTINGS 1002120 | eBay

 

[adguyer]

Now I just need to bend and plug the in-port or weld it shut!