PhD or JD?

[lpdb185]

I'm desperately trying to decide which route I want to take. I believe I have seen a few academics and attorneys on this forum, so I am wondering if there is anyone who can offer some personal/professional insight regarding my decision. My BA and MS are both in Criminal Justice, mostly because I am a law enforcement officer and this is the area of study that I have been most interested in (for both professional and personal reasons). I have long planned on attending law school. My main motivation is a love for understanding the law and its application. I'm also motivated by the higher salary potential, allowing me to better provide for (spoil) my family. However, through my undergrad and grad studies I have become increasingly fascinated with the idea of entering academia. I would love to be able to teach students at the college level, and wouldn't object to some research. However, I am uncertain about the amount of research and the publication requirements that go along with a PhD position at most universities/colleges. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. I love the idea of teaching, contributing to a body of knowledge, and joining the ranks of the academics that I have great respect for, but I'm not sure if I am suited for constant research and publication. However, I also like the idea of practicing law and making what I believe would be a significantly higher salary than that of a college professor. But, I constantly hear stories of attorneys who either struggle for work or have grown to dislike their work. Are there any academics or attorneys that can offer some insight or suggestions?

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Not all teaching gigs are "publish or perish". Community colleges seem to be only taking Ph.D.s nowadays and they rarely require their professors to publish and seek grants. You'll have more classes to teach, but can set your schedule that fits your needs.

I know I'll get bashed for this, but lawyers have no soul. At least the ones who get into it for the money.

I started a CJ doctoral program at John Jay 2 years ago but had to put it on hold, career and family obligations went crazy and I couldn't find a balance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my vote is very much in the Ph.D. column.

 

[shecky]

I am neither a lawyer nor a PhD but my wife is a lawyer. She practiced for a number of years and taught in law school at the same time. While she grew tired of practicing, she remains in the judicial system and continues to seek adjunct teaching jobs.

What I'm saying is, given your line of work I'd go JD because you can still get into teaching via that route. With a PhD you'll never be able to practice law, should you desire that.


EDIT: I see that drat, who says lawyers have no soul, is in Sayreville. Coincidentally, that's where my wife's practice was located.

 

[riverfrontbrewer]

If you want to "spoil" your family, I would say go the JD route......PhD/prof is not going to pay for itself for many years as Juco/small/mid sized colleges pay very little for the amount of ed you have. I believe that JD has a much higher immediate income potential AND, if you wanted to get into CJ teaching at some point, wouldn't you be a shoe in with a JD?

 

[broadbill]

+1 to what shecky said. With a JD you can stay in law enforcement (many detectives have law degrees, don't they?), practice law, teach, or switch gears and use your knowledge of law to move into another field. Many JDs go into business as well.

PhD pretty much qualifies you to teach...if that is where your passion is then go for it. Otherwise, go with the degree that earns you more money and allows you to be marketable in a variety of fields.

 

[Pilgarlic]

For years I've asked lawyers two questions: 1) Did you enjoy law school? and 2) Do you enjoy being a lawyer? I get many, many more negatives than positives. I'm a real estate developer and lawyers are always trying to talk to me about crossing over. My father just retired from a 50-year (including undergrad) career with a small liberal arts college, and what a wonderful life it's been for him. Get a PhD and surround yourself with people who talk about and think about interesting things.

 

[broadbill]

For years I've asked lawyers two questions: 1) Did you enjoy law school? and 2) Do you enjoy being a lawyer? I get many, many more negatives than positives. I'm a real estate developer and lawyers are always trying to talk to me about crossing over. My father just retired from a 50-year (including undergrad) career with a small liberal arts college, and what a wonderful life it's been for him. Get a PhD and surround yourself with people who talk about and think about interesting things.

It would be interesting to know if your father would do it all over again if he had to do it in today's academic environment. Alot has changed in academics over the years. For one, many small liberal arts colleges simply do not hire tenure-track faculty anymore. Why would a college bother with the commitment when you can hire adjunct faculty that with similar qualifications to teach for a fraction of the cost and no benefits?

 

[Hophazard]

I've been practicing law for a few years now (corporate, not criminal). If you want to practice criminal law, and salary is a relevant consideration, I'd ask around or look on the web for what people in your area make in various capacities as lawyers. For the most part, there isn't much money in criminal law unless you're doing defense work, and even then, most of the better paying jobs are with larger firms defending corporate clients, not individuals. I mentioned this only because you'll likely leave law school with close to $100k in debt, which is why so many lawyers are forced to sell their souls. Similarly, if you're interested in the potential for a higher salary (given the massive amount of debt), I'd recommend only seriously consider law schools ranked in the top 50. Anything lower than that generally makes it more difficult to get a job (at least in the current enviroment). PM me if you have any specific questions about law school, or the LSAT for that matter. There are benefits as well, but it's best to approach the matter with as much information as possible.

 

[pjj2ba]

This might not be of any help, but pick the one you WANT to do. I obtained my PhD in my field because it is what I wanted to do. It wasn't about money. I wanted to study how plants do what they do, and to do that at the level I wanted to, I needed a PhD.

I don't know about in CJ, but one danger of a PhD in the Sciences, is that you become overqualified for a lot of jobs in the field. In some respects, the more education you get, while the jobs pay more and tend to be stable, the pool of available jobs is smaller.

In general there are two camps of people. People who do what they love as a job, and money is usually not and issue (some luck into loving work, and get $$, then there is also the starving Artist). The second camp is those who don't really care what they do, as long as they bring home a paycheck, which ideally is enough money to do what they love

 

[PVH]

I've been practicing law for a few years now (corporate, not criminal). If you want to practice criminal law, and salary is a relevant consideration, I'd ask around or look on the web for what people in your area make in various capacities as lawyers. For the most part, there isn't much money in criminal law unless you're doing defense work, and even then, most of the better paying jobs are with larger firms defending corporate clients, not individuals. I mentioned this only because you'll likely leave law school with close to $100k in debt, which is why so many lawyers are forced to sell their souls. Similarly, if you're interested in the potential for a higher salary (given the massive amount of debt), I'd recommend only seriously consider law schools ranked in the top 50. Anything lower than that generally makes it more difficult to get a job (at least in the current enviroment). PM me if you have any specific questions about law school, or the LSAT for that matter. There are benefits as well, but it's best to approach the matter with as much information as possible.

I think this is solid advice.

As to considering only top law schools - that is something you really need to think about. When I started down the path to law school, I decided to switch careers only if I could get into one of the best schools. Unless you are very top of your class, where you go to school has a huge effect on your options after you graduate. If you want to eventually teach at a law school, the effect is hard to understate.

I am also happy to answer specific questions. Let me know if I can help.

 

[lpdb185]

well, i guess it's really a decision between practicioner and researcher. It is not ALL about the money, but that is definately a factor as i am about to become a father. Here in MS, there are only two JD granting institutions and i would say that ~85% of attorneys in the state went to one of those schools. Attending a top tier school is out of the question and not really necessary since i only plan on practicing in this area. i'm not moving off to practice for the same reason that i can't move off to attend a top tier school.

while i did not blow out the LSAT, i finished my BA with a 3.9 GPA and my MS with a 4.0 GPA. I know several people currently in law school, and from talking with them i feel that i will be able to finish toward the top of the class. at the same time, i'm not sure to what degree i would be successful in a PhD program. the coursework doesn't intimidate me, but the dissertaion and the idea of having to publish after graduation does.

broadbill and durango: i've also thought about the ability to enter academia with the JD, and that was my motivation for getting the MS. many colleges will hire CJ instructors who have a JD in conjunction with a MS in CJ. however, the colleges i'm familiar with will also require you to obtain a PhD within X amount of years in order to maintain your status. i just hate the idea of spending 100k on a JD, only to turn around and spend another 50k on a PhD. nonetheless, it would give me a foot in the door to academia and that's what is making me lean more towards the JD. like a few other said, it just seems like it would give me greater flexability.

i plan on having an in depth conversation with one of my former professors and mentors regarding the PhD career path, as well as speaking with an acquaintance who is just starting the dissertation phase of his PhD. i know plenty of attorneys and have talked with many of them. i guess i'll just keep listening until i hear something that helps me solidify my decision.

 

[alcibiades]

In case you haven't heard, the lawyer bubble burst, and MANY current law graduates are without jobs. I just graduated law school this year, from a top tier university, and I would say over half my peers didn't have jobs at graduation. I also personally know many graduates from top 10 law schools who don't have jobs. The situation is desperate.

If you are going into criminal, it will be a bit easier to get a job, but not much easier. Add to that the probability that you'll go for a high paying firm job once your child is born (its more money), and once you experience the "lemming effect" of being a law student (PM me for details on this), my guess is you'll be disappointed by the available jobs.

The market might turnaround by the time you graduate law school, but in my opinion its not worth the risk. I would gladly reverse time and save 100k by not going to law school. The only way I would do it again is if I had a full scholarship (you should definitely try to get one, even if it means going to a bottom tier school).

All this being said, I think you would like lawschool, judging by your previous posts citing relevant caselaw and making good arguments in reference to the arizona illegal immigrant law thread. I can tell you that I did NOT enjoy law school academically (my real passion is political theory), but that I also NEVER cited any case law or even thought about the law before going to law school...

PM me if you want more info.

 

[lpdb185]

thanks for the input alcibiades. i know that law school had become much the fad, just like MBA programs are now. even here in south mississippi, they are a dime a dozen. i'm kind of flattered that you recall my debate posts and think positively of them. my first criminal procedure class was tought by a federal judge and he is pretty much responsible for my enthusiasm for learning/studying the law. he used to let me sit in chambers with him and hang around during court. he wrote one of my letters of reccomendation to law school and if i do go through with the JD, i think i would clerk for him. as i understand it, that would be a pretty good move and make me a little more valuable in the job market. if i were able to finish in the top ~5-10% of my class and do a year or two clerkship, would it be fair to say that i would be fairly appealing to potential employers?

 

[alcibiades]

Knowing a federal judge definitely increases your chances, as does clerking for him. Having had a real job between college and lawschool helps as well, let alone being a police officer. You'd be surprised how many lawstudents just go straight through.

 

[lpdb185]

thanks. that's what i was hoping. from what i have gathered from talking with many attorneys and JD students, i believe i'll be able to do really well and come out in high standing (hopefully). i guess for now, i'll lean toward law school. otherwise, i know i'll just spend the rest of my life wondering what it would have been like. then i can pay off my loans and do the PhD. that should be a good combo for any job market i'm concerned about.



thanks for everyone's input. there were a few things that i was needing to hear to help me in my decision. now if i could just make a good batch of beer

 

[velosim]

Please, pleas , please really evaluate where you picture yourself in 5 years and what you want to be spending your time doing. Since you are a homebrewer I will assume you have a passion for beer, relaxing and enjoying your hobby and spending time with friends and family. You also mentioned having money to spend on your family so I assume you will also want to spend time with them and not just your money. Keep these things in mind when making your decision. Yes, you can go into academia with a J.D., I know many who have do so, but if you are thinking J.D. so you can make more money you will probably have to give up many things in return (much fewer hours to brew, less time with friends and family, much less work-life balance, etc...).

I went to a top 5 law school and graduated in '07, I took a job with a very large international law firm in London which paid me extremely well and was practicing law (capital markets, m&a, corporate) which was very interesting to me with a group of peers I actually liked. I quit after less than 2 years despite a horrible job market, no prospects for a new job, outstanding student loans and a family to take care of. I basically burned out from working so hard for people who had no idea what it meant to have a real life outside of work and realized I didn't want to spend my life in an office and never get to see my wife or small children (or other family or friends) except maybe on weekends. I still do not have a job (my wife is now the primary bread winner), but I get to take care of my children every day of the week, spend actual quality time with my wife every day and every weekend, see my friends and brew tons of beer. I am much happier. I am also still looking to find a legal position that will pay me a livable wage and allow me to have a life, but I am much happier now than before and I get to see my kids grow up.

I am not saying that there are not very rewarding and less time-consuming legal careers out there, but just be vary wary about making a 3+ year commitment where a major consideration is earning power. Money does NOT equal happiness. Please also feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. The only other piece of advice I have is to definitely consider a state school or a school offering you scholarships. Good luck!

 

[lpdb185]

just when i was starting to settle on something you give me one of these stories (just kidding). see, this is the some story i've heard from a few different people and this is what concerns me about JD route. let me say, i'm not considering the JD because i want to earn 500K a year (well, it would be nice). i say the money is a factor because i believe i would enjoy being an attorney and a professor fairly equally. in mississippi, i gather that a starting attorney might make around 70k per year, whereas a new professor might make around 50k per year. plus, i know a few local attorneys that have won multi-million dollar settlements and made bank pretty quick. i do, however, understand that this is quite the longshot, but it does happen. so if i think i would enjoy them equally, then the difference seems to be earning potential. i'm NOT going to sacrifice much family time for the sake of making a few extra dollars. but an extra 15-20k a year, or the chance that i could make a few hundred thousand on one case, makes a pretty big difference.

nonetheless, i was already leaning toward law school mainly because i know the curiosity will kill me if i don't. and if i become dissatisfied, it will be valuable experience. plus, paying for 5 more years of grad school will be much easier making 70K a year versus the current 36k a year. i was really wanting to see if the thoughts and concerns i had were shared by others like you; obviously they are. honestly, i don't think i'll be completely satisfied until i have done both the JD and PhD. i guess i'll just hope that my wife doesn't leave me because of my addiction to school.

 

[Pilgarlic]

It would be interesting to know if your father would do it all over again if he had to do it in today's academic environment. Alot has changed in academics over the years. For one, many small liberal arts colleges simply do not hire tenure-track faculty anymore. Why would a college bother with the commitment when you can hire adjunct faculty that with similar qualifications to teach for a fraction of the cost and no benefits?

I'm sure there are colleges that have accepted that tradeoff. The answer to "why would a college bother with the commitment", though, is that it creates an academic community that can't be built or maintained with an itinerant or nearly transient faculty. Carleton College in Northfield, MN and Lawrence University in Appleton, WI are two schools that have maintained that commitment and there are many, many others. I suppose it depends in part on the strength of the endowment and the specific college's mission.