pH Question.....AGAIN.....need a chemist maybe

[Brewer3401]

I have very soft water, and after adding gypsum to get calcium to 120-130 ppm. Checked pH and was 7.45

I slowly added 70% phosphoric acid until my pH was 5.75
This was a large volume of water - 14.80 gallons

6 hours later, I checked the pH and it had DROPPED to 5.27

I use a good pH meter, and did a two point calibration at 4.01 and 7.01

Is this an example of temporary hardness ?

If so, I assume that I should only treat down to 1 full point above my target, wait 6+ hours, then make any final adjustments before brewing.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[944play]

Not to sound flip, but why do you care what pH your water is?

 

[Beerrific]

Just adjust the mash. Ignore the pH of the water. Water sitting will change pH as the CO2 dissolved into it changes.

 

[Brewer3401]

Not to sound flip, but why do you care what pH your water is?

If I had 9+ pH water and did not treat it, it would make a difference in the beer.

I guess, a general rule of thumb, is to be in the low 5.00 pH range when mashing and sparging.

Sparging with high pH water will extract tannins (nasty stuff).

 

[Yooper]

If I had 9+ pH water and did not treat it, it would make a difference in the beer.

I guess, a general rule of thumb, is to be in the low 5.00 pH range when mashing and sparging.

Sparging with high pH water will extract tannins (nasty stuff).

Well, it's the mash pH that you need to worry about. When you sparge, you don't want the pH to get above 6 but I can't see why you'd lower the pH of the sparge water that low. That's wild.

 

[Beerrific]

If I had 9+ pH water and did not treat it, it would make a difference in the beer.

I guess, a general rule of thumb, is to be in the low 5.00 pH range when mashing and sparging.

Sparging with high pH water will extract tannins (nasty stuff).

I would probably adjust the pH to somewhere around 7.0 and then re-adjust in the mash. Predicting mash pH from water pH seems like a hassle to me.

 

[wildwest450]

That calcium seems a tad high as well. Head down to the brewing science forum and read the brewing water primer, good stuff.

_

 

[Brewer3401]

Well, it's the mash pH that you need to worry about. When you sparge, you don't want the pH to get above 6 but I can't see why you'd lower the pH of the sparge water that low. That's wild.

I thought sparge water was important. I've read that final runnings at over, maybe, 6.00 pH were not a good thing.

 

[Brewer3401]

Well, it's the mash pH that you need to worry about. When you sparge, you don't want the pH to get above 6 but I can't see why you'd lower the pH of the sparge water that low. That's wild.

I think adjusting the mash pH is a real PIA - easier to get plain water thoroughly mixed than a mash, especially a thick one.

 

[Yooper]

I think adjusting the mash pH is a real PIA - easier to get plain water thoroughly mixed than a mash, especially a thick one.

But, the water pH is useless. It doesn't matter a whit. It's the mash pH that is crucial.

 

[Brewer3401]

That calcium seems a tad high as well. Head down to the brewing science forum and read the brewing water primer, good stuff.

_

Great, thanks for the info. I do have great water for a Bohemian Pilsner - there's basically nothing in it.

Judging from the water hardness map of the USA, I am in a pretty rare area with very soft water.

Got to read a little in BYO mag about using distilled or RO water as a base, then adjusting - need to finish reading the article I guess.

 

[Yooper]

I thought sparge water was important. I've read that final runnings at over, maybe, 6.00 pH were not a good thing.

Sure. But you can't add acidic water (a pH of 5?) to it and expect good flavor. Remember that the grains are acidic also, and the mash is in the 5.4ish area when the sparge starts. So, you have a lot of wiggle room before the pH of the runnings would get to 6, even if you used straight tap water.

Vinegar has a pH of about 5. And you know what that tastes like. Do you really want to use water just as sour in a beer?

 

[Brewer3401]

Sure. But you can't add acidic water (a pH of 5?) to it and expect good flavor. Remember that the grains are acidic also, and the mash is in the 5.4ish area when the sparge starts. So, you have a lot of wiggle room before the pH of the runnings would get to 6, even if you used straight tap water.

Vinegar has a pH of about 5. And you know what that tastes like. Do you really want to use water just as sour in a beer?

I agree with you. I get my sparge water to 5.25.

I try to get my mash water to right around 6.00 - the mash will naturally become more acidic.

 

[indianaroller]

Are you fly sparging? I don't think you need to have the ph of your sparge water down to 5.25.

 

[Brewer3401]

Thanks to everyone for their input - I appreciate the feedback.

I still am wondering why my pH DROPPED after I initially treated it.

I'm guessing it's temporary hardness that "went away" over the 6 hour period between the first reading and the second.

I'm brewing tomorrow, and will check the pH before mashing in - and will report back on what the water did overnight.

If the mash water is too low, I'll just displace some with non-treated tap water to get the pH to around 6.00

5.25 is a good number for me for sparge water.

Again, thanks for all of your input.

On a lighter note, based on the volume of responses to this thread, I can tell Tuesday night is not Ladies Night or Men's Night anywhere in the USA

 

[tchuklobrau]

what did you do before ag? did you worry about water? I decided before i went ag that i would not let the science get in front of the fun or the love. I have done all my ag batches by the" if the water tastes good it is good theory"(yes i know i will get blasted here). I get 10g of spring h20(pipe in ground at my buddies house flows year round) heat to what promash says i need for my strike temp and mash away. I am on my 12th batch ag and all have been fantastic. coud not(and will not) get my head around the constant headache of mash ph and h20 analysis. so i say let it fly. rdwhahb

 

[wildwest450]

Great, thanks for the info. I do have great water for a Bohemian Pilsner - there's basically nothing in it.

I have the same kind of water, you're lucky, it's great to brew with. You should have to do minimal salt additions to get a good beer. I would download ez water calculator, simple to use, and gets the mash ph very close, i've never had to readjust after the initial additions.


_

 

[remilard]

Great, thanks for the info. I do have great water for a Bohemian Pilsner - there's basically nothing in it.

If there is no alkalinity in your sparge water, as in Plzen water, there is no point in adding acid.

 

[Brewer3401]

But, the water pH is useless. It doesn't matter a whit. It's the mash pH that is crucial.

Very late response on this, but I found out what my problem was.

My Hanna pH meter was a little under 5 years old, and recently started acting very strangely.

Called the Hanna people, and he asked how old it was. Told him, and he said the MAXIMUM life on the pH probe was 1 1/2 years.

It seemed to be working OK in the past, but I think it was the probe.

Using ColorPHast strips - the 0-14 to get in the ballpark, then the 4-7 to fine tune the pH

Yooper, when I first started AG brewing I did some "testing", and I knew what the mash pH should be based on what grains were going into the mash. This was way easier for me to do, because I could always get the desired mash pH and not have to adjust the wet mash pH (that's when my first pH meter was new)

My water pH (as noted in my previous posts) was not jumping around - it was the pH meter not giving correct readings.

Again to all who replied, thanks.

 

[dstar26t]

If you have very soft water and your mash pH is where you want it, you won't have to treat your sparge water if your concern is high final runnings pH during fly sparging. Test the final runnings pH and you'll see.

 

[mabrungard]

Hardness is not the concern. It is alkalinity that affects sparging and tannin extraction. In an indirect way, a softer water might have lower alkalinity than a harder water. But that is not a guarantee. Brewers need to be more concerned with alkalinity and far less concerned with hardness.

 

[Brewer3401]

OK, thanks for the 2 replies. I'm not a chemist but have tried to learn some water chemistry.

Here is my water profile in mg/L (ppm, right ?)

Calcium 1.59
Magnesium < 0.100
Bicarbonate 1.78
Carbonate 14.00
Alk as CaC03 190
Ca++ Hardness 3.98
Ttl Hard CaC03 3.97

The pH meter not working correctly really made me nuts. It seemed to be working. Until the last time I used, I could do a 2 point calibration so I assumed it was working.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

 

[StMarcos]

I wonder what the Na level is

 

[Brewer3401]

I wonder what the Na level is

Sodium is 92

Sorry, thought I had that one - should have proof read better

 

[rayg]

I have very soft water, and after adding gypsum to get calcium to 120-130 ppm. Checked pH and was 7.45

I slowly added 70% phosphoric acid until my pH was 5.75
This was a large volume of water - 14.80 gallons

With that volume of water, my first guess would be that
you didn't mix everything thoroughly. Just swirling
the container would not be enough, you would have to
lift it and tilt it upside down (several times), not too
easy with 15 gallons. Once the solution was homogeneous
after sitting for awhile, you got the true reading.

Ray

 

[Brewer3401]

With that volume of water, my first guess would be that
you didn't mix everything thoroughly. Just swirling
the container would not be enough, you would have to
lift it and tilt it upside down (several times), not too
easy with 15 gallons. Once the solution was homogeneous
after sitting for awhile, you got the true reading.

Ray

I use a Lightnin lab mixer to mix the water - it was mixed extremely well.

I do believe the 5 year old pH meter was the problem.

Didn't know they only lasted 1 - 1 1/2 years.

I have colorpHast strips 0-14 and have ordered the 4-7 range. I've used these (0-14) when I was a mud engineer in the 80's. Very expensive, but they do work very well (compared them to pH meter - when it was still working accurately)

Also, will titrate acid to determine exactly how much acid to get right above my target (and keep notes for future brews)

Wish I would have thought about the bad pH meter. I just could not understand how the pH was jumping around so much.

Should have taken more chemistry classes I guess.

Thanks to all who replied.