persistent IPA issues

[Projectfdw]

Looking for some feedback on some IPA issues that have persisted through several batches.

Last 4 IPA batches (all different in scope- northeast, west coast, Pliny clone) all have an off taste. They aren't bad per se but just don't have that IPA pop I want. Some background

All graiN
RO water using salts to style
Hit all measurable numbers for the most part
No secondary.
Keg and dry hop in kegs(as well as primary)
Fermentation temp is spot on
3 week primary
Mash around 151

The taste:
Solid aroma and hop smell
Little to no real hop bite
Overly creamy mouthfeel
They all taste the same. The northeast ipas taste exactly the same as the Pliny clone (most recent batch).

I have used the same keg for each batch and while I don't think it's necessarily an infection, I wonder if there is something off in the keg because when I move from primary to keg it smells more pungent and IPA like. The keg formerly held Pepsi and I can still occasionally get a small smell of the soda though I've washed the keg many times with oxyclean.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

 

[jcav]

Did you change out all the O-rings? That will contribute an off taste if it had soda in it before.

John

 

[Projectfdw]

Did you change out all the O-rings? That will contribute an off taste if it had soda in it before.



John

I believe I did. I know I should know the answer but I'm pretty sure I did. My biggest issue is the mouthfeel and maybe I could describe it as an underlying sweetness that seems to kill the hop taste.

 

[mredge73]

Maybe there is an issue with your "salts to style" method. I am a novice in water chemistry but posting your salt schedule may help others see if there is an issue.

Longer boils will reduce the perceived bitterness, therefore reduce the hop "bite". How long are you boiling for?

With the keg, are you disassembling all parts to clean? Make sure you clean under the o-rigs as well, or try a new set as suggested above.

 

[jcav]

Ok, if you want to post your recipe it could be your grain bill, like to much crystal malt. Or yeast might not be attenuating fully and your final gravity could be too high, etc.

John

 

[TheMadKing]

Well the creamy feel is probably from your mash temp and adding crystal malt, carapils, or flaked wheat. I would drop your mash temp to 148. Also make sure you have a high sulfide to chloride ratio, that will help the hop flavors present. (add a little gypsum to a glass of the beer and see if it tastes better)

The rest of your problem sounds like a hop schedule issue. Hop "bite" is usually from the bittering hops, so try increasing those a bit with a high AA% hops. You should also be using a RIDICULOUS amount of hops in your whirlpool (5-10 oz).

Can you post your recipe?

 

[mredge73]

I believe I did. I know I should know the answer but I'm pretty sure I did. My biggest issue is the mouthfeel and maybe I could describe it as an underlying sweetness that seems to kill the hop taste.

What is your FG? You should be getting 1.010 or lower.
Could be a recipe problem, are you using over 5% crystal + carapils in your APA/IPA?

If this isn't the issue you may want to check out your thermometer, you may be mashing well above 151F. This will make your finish sweeter with a higher FG.

 

[rmchair]

Funny, I made a Pliny clone and a ne ipa side by side and was surprised how much alike they taste.

Still, issues- are you double dry hopping? Are your dry hopping practices sound? Are you storing hops in freezer? Any sunlight issues?
I was washing kegs with the old fill and rinse method and was amazed how much more crud comes out when I got a mark carboy washer.
Also, I have hard SE water and found that only the real pbw rinses out. The fakes left residue even after star san.
I also made sure to mix my star San with filtered water.

Lastly, do you have check valves on your co2 splitter?

 

[Projectfdw]

Thanks for all the responses. A few more noteS

For the Pliny I used tasty mc'ds water profile. For the northeast I used Braufessor's profile
I drop hop in primary and then in the keg
Been using mostly dry yeast (s05 for the Pliny
FG for the Pliny was 1.014
Hops and yeast are are from morebeer or local homebrew shop.
60 minute boils except Pliny which was 90.

Recipe was the widely known Pliny clone https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/

I usually make saisons as my other main style and they don't have the same issue.

 

[Weezy]

I'm wondering if the cranked up pump simply sucked all the finer particles out of the grist mix, to the edge of the bag, and clogged the bag?

 

[Projectfdw]

Funny, I made a Pliny clone and a ne ipa side by side and was surprised how much alike they taste.



Still, issues- are you double dry hopping? Are your dry hopping practices sound? Are you storing hops in freezer? Any sunlight issues?

I was washing kegs with the old fill and rinse method and was amazed how much more crud comes out when I got a mark carboy washer.

Also, I have hard SE water and found that only the real pbw rinses out. The fakes left residue even after star san.

I also made sure to mix my star San with filtered water.



Lastly, do you have check valves on your co2 splitter?

I'm not sure what the check valve is but I did notice an issue a few weeks back where my 10lb tank ran out in 2 months when they usually last 2 years. I just haven't had a chance to diagnose the leak yet. Could that be related.

 

[doug293cz]

There is mounting anecdotal evidence on HBT that often the issue with "meh" IPA's is due to oxygen pick up during packaging. Hop flavor and aroma are easily degraded with oxidation, and commercial brewers target 0.1 - 0.2 ppm (100 - 200 ppb) total O2 in packaging (see page 23 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf.)

What is your detailed kegging procedure? Are you doing CO2 pushed, closed transfers to CO2 purged kegs? How long are you cold crashing (O2 sucks back into the fermenter during cold crashing, unless extraordinary measures are taken)? What is your headspace purging protocol after you fill the keg?

Brew on

 

[Projectfdw]

There is mounting anecdotal evidence on HBT that often the issue with "meh" IPA's is due to oxygen pick up during packaging. Hop flavor and aroma are easily degraded with oxidation, and commercial brewers target 0.1 - 0.2 ppm (100 - 200 ppb) total O2 in packaging (see page 23 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf.)



What is your detailed kegging procedure? Are you doing CO2 pushed, closed transfers to CO2 purged kegs? How long are you cold crashing (O2 sucks back into the fermenter during cold crashing, unless extraordinary measures are taken)? What is your headspace purging protocol after you fill the keg?



Brew on

I've thought that but it's only been in the keg 2 weeks so I thought oxidation may not set in this fast.

I don't have the equipment to close purge yet but I do purge the keg with co2 before filling.

While cold crashing I replace the airlock with foil.

When kegged I fill and purge the keg with co2 about 6 times.

Maybe it is the oxygen????

 

[doug293cz]

I've thought that but it's only been in the keg 2 weeks so I thought oxidation may not set in this fast.

I don't have the equipment to close purge yet but I do purge the keg with co2 before filling.

While cold crashing I replace the airlock with foil.

When kegged I fill and purge the keg with co2 about 6 times.

Maybe it is the oxygen????

Some things to try that are not too hard to do, and shouldn't require any equipment you don't already have:

• Minimize opening the fermenter after active fermentation has started. A normal fermentation will very effectively purge fermenter headspace of O2, but you add air (O2) any time you open it up.
• Minimize cold crashing time (2 days max), since you cannot prevent air suck back into the fermenter during cold crash.
• Fill the keg to overflowing with StarSan, and insert the lid in such a way that minimal air gets trapped in the lid pocket, then seal the lid.
• Put a liquid QD on the tube you will rack to the keg with, then blow the StarSan out of the liquid post (with CO2 into the gas post) thru the tube into a catch bucket.
• Put you finger/thumb over the end of the tube (to keep air from getting into it), remove it from the catch bucket, and attach to your racking cane or fermenter spigot.
• Open the PRV in the lid, and rack into the closed keg. When complete, close the PRV.
• Purge the keg headspace 5 times at 30psi.

The process above isn't the absolute best possible, but it's a lot better than racking into a keg thru the open lid.

Brew on

 

[hobomoto]

[*]Minimize cold crashing time (2 days max), since you cannot prevent air suck back into the fermenter during cold crash.

You can prevent air suck back by using a solid rubber stopper. The air still comes in, just not until the very moment until you are ready to siphon/push with co2 when it it is removed. At that point, exposure is minimal since there is still a large volume of co2 for the air to mix with and the time is so short until it is moved to the keg.

 

[schematix]

best way to not introduce oxygen during cold crashing is to not cold crash in the primary.

 

[doug293cz]

best way to not introduce oxygen during cold crashing is to not cold crash in the primary.

Agreed, but now you're getting into extra equipment.

Brew on

 

[schematix]

Agreed, but now you're getting into extra equipment.

Brew on

How so? 1 fermenter + 1 keg either way. I"m suggesting transferring with a few gravity points remaining, let it finish in the keg, THEN cold crash.

 

[doug293cz]

How so? 1 fermenter + 1 keg either way. I"m suggesting transferring with a few gravity points remaining, let it finish in the keg, THEN cold crash.

I believe most folks who do it that way end up shortening the liquid dip tube a little to make up for the extra trub that will end up in the bottom of the keg. Shortening the dip reduces the usable keg volume by a pint or three. Thus necessitating slightly smaller batch sizes. If a brewer finds that acceptable, then there's nothing wrong with doing it this way. However, the shortened dip tube makes getting "all" the StarSan out of the keg when pre-purging with CO2 a bit more difficult.

My ideal set up would be to go from fermenter (with ~ 4 gravity points to go) into a 6.5 gal corny keg (pre-purged.) Then spund to FG, cold crash under a few psi of CO2, then rack to serving keg and carbonate. Unfortunately, Williams Brewing no longer offers the 6.5 gal kegs, and has no plans to offer them in the future (according to the e-mail they sent me.) So, right now I'm looking for a plan "B."

Brew on

 

[schematix]

I believe most folks who do it that way end up shortening the liquid dip tube a little to make up for the extra trub that will end up in the bottom of the keg. Shortening the dip reduces the usable keg volume by a pint or three. Thus necessitating slightly smaller batch sizes. If a brewer finds that acceptable, then there's nothing wrong with doing it this way. However, the shortened dip tube makes getting "all" the StarSan out of the keg when pre-purging with CO2 a bit more difficult.

Yah i don't follow your logic one bit here.

You only shorten the LIQUID dip tube in the fermenting keg, and you don't purge that keg. You only purge the serving keg, which is normal except for the shortened GAS dip tube.

My ideal set up would be to go from fermenter (with ~ 4 gravity points to go) into a 6.5 gal corny keg (pre-purged.) Then spund to FG, cold crash under a few psi of CO2, then rack to serving keg and carbonate. Unfortunately, Williams Brewing no longer offers the 6.5 gal kegs, and has no plans to offer them in the future (according to the e-mail they sent me.) So, right now I'm looking for a plan "B."

Why would you want to rack into a 6.5G corny and have all that head space? If anything you'd want a 6.5G corny fermenting keg and then a 5G serving keg. If you spund it right you don't need to apply external CO2 to cold crash it either.

I've found i can get about 4.75G into a 5G keg (they are actually more than 5G if you consider the entire volume) and will get about 4.5G clean beer into the serving keg. For me it's worth it considering i can also up my batch size just a little and get 3x4.5G in the end instead of just 2x5.

 

[doug293cz]

Yah i don't follow your logic one bit here.

You only shorten the LIQUID dip tube in the fermenting keg, and you don't purge that keg. You only purge the serving keg, which is normal except for the shortened GAS dip tube. If you transfer to the fermenting keg with only a couple of gravity points left to ferment, I'm not sure the yeast will use up the available O2 in the fermenting keg's headspace. Also, the amount of CO2 produced at the end of fermentation is likely to be inadequate to do an effective purge of the headspace (for a full primary fermentation there is enough CO2 generated to drop O2 concentrations below 1 ppb.) Thus to make sure you don't have too much O2 in the fermenting keg headspace, I would purge the fermenting keg. If you do your full primary in a gas tight pressure vessel, then no problem.

Why would you want to rack into a 6.5G corny and have all that head space? If anything you'd want a 6.5G corny fermenting keg and then a 5G serving keg. If you spund it right you don't need to apply external CO2 to cold crash it either. Yeah, a 6.5 gal keg could be used as a primary fermenter, rather than a "finish" fermenter/bright tank. To account for CO2 absorption during cold crashing, you need to spund at greater than 6 psi, in oder to keep positive pressure in the keg, or you could just hook up a couple psi of CO2 during cold crash.

I've found i can get about 4.75G into a 5G keg (they are actually more than 5G if you consider the entire volume) and will get about 4.5G clean beer into the serving keg. For me it's worth it considering i can also up my batch size just a little and get 3x4.5G in the end instead of just 2x5. Like I said, if the volume trade offs work for you, then fine.

Here's an elegant solution that I just saw today thanks to a post by another HBT member. I think I'm gonna go this way now (my plan "B".)

Brew on

 

[schematix]

Here's an elegant solution that I just saw today thanks to a post by another HBT member. I think I'm gonna go this way now (my plan "B".)

Brew on

Nifty. That's kinda like when i ferment, except using 2 kegs and i'm under pressure. Makes closed loop racking super simple (purge hoses with serving keg gas, connect beer-beer, then gas-gas, come back in 30 miuntes), plus all the fermentation gases are used to purge the serving keg many times over.

For the record 4-6 points is plenty to carbonate and yeast will uptake any O2 within hours. Carbonation is easy enough. You just need to spund (or vent) to the right pressure for the temp you're at. When you crash it'll drop the head pressure, but if you'll still be positive when you're done so the lid seal won't come loose.