Perfecting a recipe

[Hernando]

I just read an article about adjusting your recipes for judging. I personally have never brewed the same beer twice but I have only been brewing for a year and a half. I wanted to know some processes or best practices for refining a recipe that you enjoyed. I would like to continue to brew new batches not yet tried but I also would love to learn and get your ideas on how to really make a great beer, a "WOW" beer.

I know that fermentation control and all that, are key and I am not talking about that portion of the brewing; more, I am leaning towards the adjustment of a recipe to make it better. Say you get a beer, enter it in a comp and the write up says, " doesn't have the roastiness I expected with this style". It is still a great beer but I want to tweek it till it is where it should be.

Do you boil 1 gallon batches and change it up till you get it where you want it? Do you do full 5 gal. boils? Do you change the beer already bottle/kegged? I would love to hear some thoughts & ideas on this process.

 

[tally350z]

I guess it all comes down to what the individual wants. Its all opinion. For me I have never entered a beer in a competition. I do some browsing around these forums for a good base recipe on what I am trying to make, ie. Porter, stout etc. I use my beersmith 2 and enter it in and look at all the outputs. Then I change what I want in a beer. I'll brew a 5 gallon batch and see how it turns out, while taking notes. Then I will change it with some addition grain depending on what I want more off.

I am like you though, I try not to make the same beer over and over, but I have two recipes that I like to brew about twice maybe three times a year to try and perfect it to my liking. Other than that every other brew is a throw together and see what happens.

 

[Yooper]

If I think a beer needs more "toastiness" as an example, either from a critique or my own perception, I still brew a full sized batch if I really liked the base beer but then add some victory malt. Or if a beer needs more malt backbone, I'd add some Munich malt. I don't do small batches, unless I'm doing on a 5 gallon batch for an oddball beer.

 

[beergolf]

I have a couple of recipes that I am in the process of perfecting. They are very good, but I want them better, so I am slowly tweaking the recipes. They are good brews so I just do a 5 gallon batch with slight changes to get them exactly how I want them.

I still love to brew different recipes, but I think taking the time to develop a few good solid recipes helps you become a better brewer. It helps you understand what slight changes can do to a brew.

 

[shutupjojo]

Once the beer has peaked I like to sit down with it and adjust the recipe in beersmith to what I think would make it better. It takes me a few batches to get it right but eventually end up with a solid recipe that I won't change anymore or try not to. Tasting as you go and knowledge of what the ingredients do for the beer is key for me.

 

[TopherM]

BJCP judges are going to (or at least are supposed to) judge your beer EXACTLY based on the style descriptions in the BJCP style guide, so the easy answer is just follow the descriptions to a T!

It's pretty easy to make sure you hit the proper OG/FG/ABV, SRM color, IBUs, Carb profile, and general malt guidelines. You should know all that before you ever send off your beer.

It is also pretty easy once you have some experience to diagnose any off-flavors the judges might warn you about on the scoresheets and correct them in the next batch.

I think what you are talking about are the subtleties that turn a good to style beer that might score in the 30s to a GREAT to style beer that will score in the 40s.

Well, that's the million dollar question, and it's mostly practice and precision make perfect in my estimation.

Most of the guys I know in my club that medal on the state and national level perfect recipes through lots of trial and error and ridiculously an*l consistency. They literally keep 100 variables exactly the same and tweak 1-2 minor variables on each batch, and are usually on version 6.0 to 8.0 before they enter it in competition. The guys I know that score in the 40s and win competitions also have cellers of stored beer bottles that are properly aged almost to the day of peaking and are just waiting for a competition that might be 3-12 months off. In short, they pay attention to ALL the details.

One guy in my club that places in the Barleywine category at most of the FL BJCP events brewed his batch last weekend for the Dec. 2013 event, and it's his Barleywine recipe from like 1993. Boring, but that's what it takes.

Most of us, on the other hand (me included), kinda brew to style, enter version 1.0 that we brewed 6 weeks ago in a competition, and hope for the best. You might get lucky and brew a GREAT 40+ beer, but trust me, for most of those guys it is not luck, it is LOTS of work.

If that's what your goal is, that's where you need to be. There's a BIGGGGG difference between brewing beers that taste good and brewing to exacting standards.

 

[Paulgs3]

They literally keep 100 variables exactly the same and tweak 1-2 minor variables on each batch, and are usually on version 6.0 to 8.0 before they enter it in competition.

This is key, trust me. I do this every day at work (not brew, I wish I brewed for work....). Great post!

 

[Hernando]

I guess for the first year or so I have been trying to get the whole process down. I have learned a lot about ingredients but not enough to where I feel comfortable knowing that victory malt will add toastiness and how much I need or how much is to much. So I guess that is my next process. But what makes it diffcult for me is I taste a beer I brewed and it's good, but without that knowlege of what's lacking, what is overpowering, what doesn't fit, and what ingredient(s) makes that happen, makes it difficult. I hope that makes sense.

And, it isn't so much that I am looking for perfecting beers strictly for BJCP comps; although that is great information to read & keep in mind for beers that I do decide to enter into competitions.

 

[Wayne1]

Join a homebrew club. There are quite a few very good clubs in the Denver metro area. Most have very experienced brewers/judges that will be happy to share their knowledge.

No need to wait for a competition to find out what people think about your beer. Bring some to a meeting and just ask. Most members of clubs are more than happy to give an opinion for some free beer.

Your beers will improve and your knowledge of brewing will expand with the help of a homebrew club.

 

[TopherM]

Well also remember that "great beer" and a great competition score are not the same. I brewed a camomile honey hefeweizen that I entered into a competition that also included a charity tasting. There were BJCP judges, then there was a people's choice award. My beer tasted great, and was a finalist for the people's choice award, but scored a 24-26-26 with the judges (and rightfully so!).

Both the judges and the people were right. It was a great beer that was a little off style for a traditional Hefeweizen. Even all of the judges commented that they really liked the beer personally, it was just out of style on some points. Most of the judge's comments I could care less about, I will brew that beer again just like it was.

I'd urge you as a new brewer not to worry too much about competition comments. It is useful to enter competitions to have a base idea of where you are at in your brewing career (pay particular attention to the off-flavor comments and worry about those), but focus now on making consistently good beers, then later down the line once you have a catalogue of your own great recipes, you'll have more of the knowledge and instincts it takes to tweak those great recipes into contest winners.

Good luck!

 

[SimonHucko]

taking good notes is key, as is changing only one or two small variables between batches. I've been iterating my way through a house pale ale and I'm finally to a point where I'm super happy with the beer (although I still have a tweak or two for next time). it's always been pretty good, so brewing 5 gal batches of it instead of smaller test batches is a no brainer. there's no reason you can't scale down and do several test batches until you get it where you want, but it depends on your equipment and pipeline setup and what you're hoping to drink - you're not producing very much beer and have to wait a good 6-8 weeks to get the results you're after each time.

 

[Hernando]

No need to wait for a competition to find out what people think about your beer. Bring some to a meeting and just ask. Most members of clubs are more than happy to give an opinion for some free beer.

Your beers will improve and your knowledge of brewing will expand with the help of a homebrew club.

For some reason, I never thought of joining a club for this reason. I thought it would be interesting to check a club out and just see what it's about but never really followed up with that. I'll have to look into some clubs and talk to some brewers fromthe area and see which clubs are around and if there are recommendations.

I'd urge you as a new brewer not to worry too much about competition comments. It is useful to enter competitions to have a base idea of where you are at in your brewing career (pay particular attention to the off-flavor comments and worry about those), but focus now on making consistently good beers, then later down the line once you have a catalogue of your own great recipes, you'll have more of the knowledge and instincts it takes to tweak those great recipes into contest winners

TopherM, You bring up very valid points on your posts. And, it has given my brain something to chew on. The reason I kind brought this thread up is I brewed a robust porter (it was purely an experiment) and did enter it in my first comp. I did it on the fly and wasn't expecting anything out of it other than feedback and just to see how the competition process works. But it is the off taste comment I received that I am struggling with. He noted, "a slight hint of sourness but not from an infection. Possibly mashed it too long?". So it is things like this that I would love to clean up. I mashed that beer for a standard 60 minutes but I don't know what else could cause the "sourness" I don't taste it, perhaps my beer was a bit young? I don't know. But, this is kind of where I am going. and just wanted to learn how other people proceed with updating their beer with tweaks and if they do whole batches or mini batches, etc.

taking good notes is key, as is changing only one or two small variables between batches. I've been iterating my way through a house pale ale and I'm finally to a point where I'm super happy with the beer (although I still have a tweak or two for next time). it's always been pretty good, so brewing 5 gal batches of it instead of smaller test batches is a no brainer. there's no reason you can't scale down and do several test batches until you get it where you want, but it depends on your equipment and pipeline setup and what you're hoping to drink - you're not producing very much beer and have to wait a good 6-8 weeks to get the results you're after each time.

I have been slacking off on the note taking. When I started, I took notes with great ferver and ended up RDWHAHB too the point where I stopped taking notes. I will definitely need to get back on that wagon and take more notes. Record notes from others about my beer and see what tweaks can be made. I think with that and the other posts, I should have a damn good start as to what direction I need to go in.

 

[Wayne1]

For some reason, I never thought of joining a club for this reason. I thought it would be interesting to check a club out and just see what it's about but never really followed up with that. I'll have to look into some clubs and talk to some brewers from the area and see which clubs are around and if there are recommendations.

FYI, I would suggest you look into:

KROC (Keg Ran Out Club) Great club with some very experienced brewers and judges. One of Colorado's Grand Master judges calls this club home.

Rock Hoppers Brew Club Another great club with fantastic brewers. They recently won the Rocky Mountain Homebrew Club Challenge. As a bonus they are now meeting at The Brew Hut homebrew store right next to Dry Dock Brewing Company.

Foam On the Range This is the club I belong to. Awful website but great people. Lots of education and sharing of knowledge. Many experienced brewers and judges. At least three of our members have started micros.

There are a couple of other smaller clubs, but these are the "Big Three" when it comes to the Denver area. I would suggest you try to attend a meeting of all three and talk to the folks there. Bring some of your beer and ask for opinions of what may be wrong and what might be done to tweak it a bit.

Good luck.

 

[TopherM]

He noted, "a slight hint of sourness but not from an infection. Possibly mashed it too long?". So it is things like this that I would love to clean up. I mashed that beer for a standard 60 minutes but I don't know what else could cause the "sourness" I don't taste it, perhaps my beer was a bit young?

Sounds like the judge was hinting at astringency to me. An experienced judge shouldn't be vague like that, he should have been able to be more specific than that and tell you exactly what he though it was. That comment may have come from an apprentice judge that was just starting out.

Astringency would be the mouthfeel of sour without particularly the taste of sour, like a pucker mouthfeel. It could be caused by mashing too long like the judge stated, which you obviously didn't do, but can also be caused by high mash PH and overhopping to where the bitterness is way out of balance for the malt profile of that style of beer.

You're right, though, it could have just been that the beer was young. Acetaldehyde is present in all young beers and tastes like green apple, but easily breaks down into alcohol with proper conditioning time. A good robust porter wouldn't really be ready for a good 8 weeks after brewday, and likely wouldn't peak for a good 4-5 months after brewday.

Anyway, don't worry too much about it. Brew as much as you can and keep reading the forum boards and you'll pick up little things here and there that will lead to progressively more knowledge and better beers. You're on track!

Here's a good source to "decode" those judges' off flavor comments:

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/OffFlavorFlash.pdf

 

[Hernando]

Sounds like the judge was hinting at astringency to me. An experienced judge shouldn't be vague like that, he should have been able to be more specific than that and tell you exactly what he though it was. That comment may have come from an apprentice judge that was just starting out.

Astringency would be the mouthfeel of sour without particularly the taste of sour, like a pucker mouthfeel. It could be caused by mashing too long like the judge stated, which you obviously didn't do, but can also be caused by high mash PH and overhopping to where the bitterness is way out of balance for the malt profile of that style of beer.

You're right, though, it could have just been that the beer was young. Acetaldehyde is present in all young beers and tastes like green apple, but easily breaks down into alcohol with proper conditioning time. A good robust porter wouldn't really be ready for a good 8 weeks after brewday, and likely wouldn't peak for a good 4-5 months after brewday.

Anyway, don't worry too much about it. Brew as much as you can and keep reading the forum boards and you'll pick up little things here and there that will lead to progressively more knowledge and better beers. You're on track!

The ironic thing is the judge who made that comment was the master judge and the other non certified judge seemed to like my beer. I still didn't score badly 29 and a 30.

After reading your comments there are two possible things that stand out to me now that you pointed it out: the hops used Palisade and williamette (a higher quantity with lower AA hops (which was my experiment)) with a pretty good IBU (i don't remember off hand) and the beer was definitely not 8 weeks in conditioning it was more like 3. So not even close to peaking.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

 

[Hernando]

FYI, I would suggest you look into:
There are a couple of other smaller clubs, but these are the "Big Three" when it comes to the Denver area. I would suggest you try to attend a meeting of all three and talk to the folks there. Bring some of your beer and ask for opinions of what may be wrong and what might be done to tweak it a bit.
Good luck.

Hey thanks Wayne. I'll definitely look into these clubs. Perhaps I'll see you at one of the meetings. Cheers.

 

[Hernando]

TopherM, that link is great. thanks for that.