Pedio damnosus infection, slimy w/o diacetyl

[Zabuza]

So I made a mild ale last week and I've taken some samples and it tastes very, very slimy. Like a slick down the back of your throat that makes you want to gag slimy. Everything else is fine - the malt flavor is there, the hops minimal, exactly like the mild I've brewed dozens of times before.

Reasons to expect pedio damnosus:
* Slimy/"ropy" mouthfeel, when I take readings with the hydrometer beer doesn't fall off in droplets, instead it distends for an inch before pulling clear and dropping back into the sample (not slowly, though; really fast, but clearly slimy)
* The stainless steel conical this batch of beer was fermented in previously fermented a batch of flanders red that had been inoculated with wyeast's Roselare blend - from what I understand you should always pitch the packets and not a starter/reuse yeast because it throws off the concentrations of bugs and the pedio in particular tends to overmultiply
* IBUs of the mild are relatively low, thereby failing to inhibit pedio growth (I know lacto is the super sensitive one but varieties other than damnosus are somewhat sensitive, too); 2 oz of fuggles for 60 minutes in a 10 gallon batch = 18.2 IBUs
* I dropped a rubber seal into the beer and had to dunk my whole arm in sanitizer then reach into the fermenter to get it so I could have possible contaminated it with airborne microbes

Reasons not to expect pedio damnosus:
* I pitched 2 wyeast packages of British ale yeast into a relatively low gravity wort; signs of fermentation 6 hours after pitching
* I cleaned and sanitized the **** out of that fermenter - two PBW soaks and scrub downs in which I completely disassembled all parts that come in to contact with beer and one sanitization in which I filled the entire fermenter with StarSan solution and let it sit for 3 hours. Also have brewed at least 2-3 batches in the fermenter before this mild ale and no sliminess occurred (then again the pedio could have been building up to detectable levels)
* No diacetyl/butter aroma/flavor; from what I understand though this isn't strictly speaking necessary (some varities of pedio damno don't produce diacetyl)
* It's only been precisely 7 days - pedio usually needs time to work and there's definitely no acidity to the beer

I'm thinking about pitching some brett to clean it all up if there's pedio...what do you guys think?

 

[pdxal]

Why not wait it out. Give it a few weeks and re-sample. Perhaps it will improve.
If not, Brett will clean up Pedio mess/"sickness" effectively. Of course, then you have Brett and Pedio to try to clean/sanitize away from your conical.

 

[Zabuza]

True, but I could always keg it and add Brett to the keg, right? Then I'd just have to keep track of the kegs and my fermenter wouldn't be tied up for weeks/months

 

[pdxal]

Not a bad idea. Faster. You could add Brett to just the keg, but then you'd have a conical fermentor and a keg to disinfect.
If you wait a couple of weeks to see how it turns out without messing with it, you only lose a couple of weeks.

 

[TNGabe]

Just dump it.

 

[Zabuza]

Just dump it.

Yeah, I'm toying with the idea. The thing is, I think it might be pretty beneficial to use brett to clean it up from an educational standpoint - if the slime disappears, it'll confirm it was a pedio damno infection which will be good for me to be able to identify in the future. Additionally, it'll give me some experience in using brett to clean up pedio and what sort of flavors I can expect when all is said and done.

pdxal, is it at all likely to think that the slime will disappear on its own if it is, in fact, pedio? It doesn't clean up its own sick, so why would it disappear if I don't do anything?

 

[TNGabe]

Yeah, I'm toying with the idea. The thing is, I think it might be pretty beneficial to use brett to clean it up from an educational standpoint - if the slime disappears, it'll confirm it was a pedio damno infection which will be good for me to be able to identify in the future. Additionally, it'll give me some experience in using brett to clean up pedio and what sort of flavors I can expect when all is said and done.

pdxal, is it at all likely to think that the slime will disappear on its own if it is, in fact, pedio? It doesn't clean up its own sick, so why would it disappear if I don't do anything?

If brettanomyces cleaned it up, that wouldn't give any indication as to the source of te ropiness. Nothing but plating it out will show what the source of the viscosity is. There are any number of bacteria and yeasts that can cause ropiness. Based on the information you provided, I'd say sticking your arm in the wort is the more likely source of contamination than the fermentor's previous contents. Pedio producing polysaccharides before acid doesn't jive to me.

 

[pdxal]

Yeah, I'm toying with the idea. The thing is, I think it might be pretty beneficial to use brett to clean it up from an educational standpoint - if the slime disappears, it'll confirm it was a pedio damno infection which will be good for me to be able to identify in the future. Additionally, it'll give me some experience in using brett to clean up pedio and what sort of flavors I can expect when all is said and done.

pdxal, is it at all likely to think that the slime will disappear on its own if it is, in fact, pedio? It doesn't clean up its own sick, so why would it disappear if I don't do anything?

I haven't brewed or heard of an all pedio beer being produced, so not sure pedio would clean up the sickness. Lambic brewers who experience this always have other bugs to do the cleaning, namely Brett.

 

[Zabuza]

I haven't brewed or heard of an all pedio beer being produced, so not sure pedio would clean up the sickness. Lambic brewers who experience this always have other bugs to do the cleaning, namely Brett.

When you advocated waiting without messing with it, I thought you were saying to wait without pitching Brett. I was advocating pitching Brett in the first place because it cleans up pedio...I know pedio doesn't clean up its own sick, which is why I was asking why I should wait without pitching Brett.

 

[pdxal]

I am advocating doing nothing and waiting. Why pitch Brett when you don't know it is pediococcus and the beer is only a week old? Check out all the threads on here worried about a beer that is just too young and subsequently turns out fine by simply waiting. Unless you really want to make a Brett beer, pediococcus infection or not.