Parti-gyle From a Double Stout

[Rkoory]

So im looking to put together a double stout for my next brew rotation. something with an OG of about 1.085.

My rough drafts of a recipe have put me up around 20 lbs of grain for a 5 gallon batch. I'm a batch sparger, so my expected efficiency on this guy is around 60% to 65%.

My rough grain bill is:
16 lb. American 2-row
1 lb. American crystal 120L
1 lb. American chocolate
1 lb. Roasted barley
1 lb. Flaked oats

My questions are:

Does this sound like a good candidate for a parti-gyle ESB style beer?

What is different about a grain bill that s good for doing a parti-gyle?

Can you do a parti-gyle from a batch sparge?

 

[roastquake]

I don't see why not, I would keep some DME handy though, just in case your ESB doesn't hit the gravity you want. Or if it is too low you could just roll with it and call it a standard bitter, or you could boil the hell out of it to get your gravity. That's the only problem I've encountered with the 2nd brews from parti-gyles: low gravity. If I was brewing this, I would cut the chocolate and RB in half. that would be to make the stout less astringent and the ESB lighter in color

 

[causeimthesquid]

Why are you assuming such a low efficiency? I batch sparge and my efficiency is about 80%.

My experience with partigyle brewing is that the first brew has about 70% of the gravity points. If you wind up with your stout around 1.080 I think your second batch will be below 1.040. I would definitely keep some dme on hand. You will likely lose enough color by the second batch to be in esb territory though

 

[llvllayhem]

I batch sparge as well, but I do see efficiency in the low 80s sometimes. My efficiency jumped when i started milling my own grain.

The recipe looks good, I have done one parti-gyle with a barley wine. It came out okay, low gravity of course. What you can do is mash with a higher grain to water ratio, and take the first running as your big beer ( probably not five gallons worth) and batch sparge with five gallons which would become your esb.

 

[Rkoory]

Why are you assuming such a low efficiency? I batch sparge and my efficiency is about 80%.

I would expect higher, but im not expecting a batch sparge with 20lbs of grain to hit a very high efficiency.

Is there a way of guessing what the gravity might be on the PG portion of the beer?

How about milling another few lb of base malt to pull up my second beers gravity?

I prefer to avoid DME. I have nothing against it. I've used quite a bit of it in the past.

I guess at the end of the day im happy to let the beer be what it is. However, I would like to walk into this process with a plan, and solid expectations of the final product.

 

[morticaixavier]

I would expect higher, but im not expecting a batch sparge with 20lbs of grain to hit a very high efficiency.

Is there a way of guessing what the gravity might be on the PG portion of the beer?

How about milling another few lb of base malt to pull up my second beers gravity?

I prefer to avoid DME. I have nothing against it. I've used quite a bit of it in the past.

I guess at the end of the day im happy to let the beer be what it is. However, I would like to walk into this process with a plan, and solid expectations of the final product.

I do partigyle faily regularly and I have it set up for my system as first runnings = ~52-55% brewhouse efficiency and the second runnings ~25-27%. So I'm pretty close to my normal 70%-80% efficiency if I did a single mid strength 11 gallon batch. I will often cap the mash with something to boost body and/or gravity in the small beer, maybe some flaked rye or oats and a lb or two of pale or pils malt, maybe a lb of medium crystal.

to get a big stout and and ESB I would lean towards cold steeping the dark grains and adding the steeping liqour to the kettle then capping the mash with some medium english crystal and and an extra lb or so of pale malt or munich maybe.

One caveat, I say this about adding the crystal because if I were making a big stout I would be mashing long and low to get good attenuation on the big beer. this can leave a thin second runnings but by bumping the crystal and adding water to get up to 158 for 20 minutes you can get some good additional body. If you are going for a really chewy big stout you might not need the extra sweetness from the medium crystal.

 

[Rkoory]

Morticaixavier, lots of good info. A few questions.

to get a big stout and and ESB I would lean towards cold steeping the dark grains and adding the steeping liqour to the kettle

Cold steep, I've used this for coffee adjuncts in the past, but never for grain. Does this work ok? How do I figure out volumes and OG impact for this?

bumping the crystal and adding water to get up to 158 for 20 minutes you can get some good additional body.

Is this in reference to the part of the mash designated for the second beer, or the first? What am I doing to the grain by pushing my temp up to 158? It sounds kind of like a mash out?

If you are going for a really chewy big stout you might not need the extra sweetness from the medium crystal.

Definitely chewy! I want a big thick beer. So you think dropping the crystal 120? I want this guy to have some back bone, but some sweetness for balance seems appropriate.

Advice and wisdom are greatly appreciated.

 

[prohl84]

I do partigyle faily regularly and I have it set up for my system as first runnings = ~52-55% brewhouse efficiency and the second runnings ~25-27%. So I'm pretty close to my normal 70%-80% efficiency. I will often cap the mash with something to boost body and/or gravity in the small beer, maybe some flaked rye or oats and a lb or two of pale or pils malt, maybe a lb of medium crystal.

This 100%

to get a big stout and and ESB I would lean towards cold steeping the dark grains and adding the steeping liqour to the kettle then capping the mash with some medium english crystal and and an extra lb or so of pale malt or munich maybe.

Only alternative advice I may offer is- why not some Maris Otter for an ESB?

One caveat, I say this about adding the crystal because if I were making a big stout I would be mashing long and low to get good attenuation on the big beer. this can leave a thin second runnings but by bumping the crystal and adding water to get up to 158 for 20 minutes you can get some good additional body. If you are going for a really chewy big stout you might not need the extra sweetness from the medium crystal.

More solid advice. I am planning a Stoutigyle pretty much in the same fashion. Low mash for the Impy and adding some additional dark crystal and a little Maris to get a nice brown.

 

[morticaixavier]

Morticaixavier, lots of good info. A few questions.



Cold steep, I've used this for coffee adjuncts in the past, but never for grain. Does this work ok? How do I figure out volumes and OG impact for this?

I have heard a good rule of thumb is to double the amount of roast grains, do a rough crack and steep them at room temp for 24 hours or so. it will extract a lot of the color, some of the roast flavor, and little or no harsh acidic astringency you can get when mashing dark roast grains. This will change any water pH treatment you are doing because you will not have the acidic contributions from the roast grains.

Is this in reference to the part of the mash designated for the second beer, or the first? What am I doing to the grain by pushing my temp up to 158? It sounds kind of like a mash out?

The second runnings. after mashing at say ~155 (I wouldn't go higher even for a chewy beer) run off everything in the tun. this is your first runnings stout. add the liquid from the cold steep to this in the kettle.

Add your second batch of water of a volume equal to your desired preboil volume plus whatever will be absorbed by any capping grains to hit a 158 mash temp. this is not hot enough for mash out and you will get some solid alpha amylase activity giving you some nice body and full rich mouthfeel in the smaller beer

Definitely chewy! I want a big thick beer. So you think dropping the crystal 120? I want this guy to have some back bone, but some sweetness for balance seems appropriate.

Advice and wisdom are greatly appreciated.

Don't drop the 120 from the stout, but if you are going to mash for a medium to full bodied stout you might not need to add any medium crystal (L45) to the small beer. it will be lighter in color without it but still tasty and not so sweet. Just cap the mash with a couple lb of two row and some flaked barley, wheat, oats, or rye.

 

[djfriesen]

Good advice. Just tried a barleywine IPA partigyle last weekend. Made a major error calculating efficiency and the resulting gravities were way short of what I expected. I got about 7.5 gallons of 1070 wort for the first runnings and 8.5 gallons of 1030 wort for the second. This was 25 lb of 2-row for the first mash and a 1 lb C40 cap for the second. Assuming 38 points per pound, I think I managed around 83% mash efficiency, which is ok, I guess. The main thing I took from it was enough knowledge to fix my errors and get what I'm shooting for next time. If nothing else, hopefully this can be a reference for you as you try to pin down your numbers.

 

[PLOVE]

Really smart suggestions out there. Splitting your 80% efficiency into 50% as first runnings, and 30% as second is sharp.

I've done a few with reds and barley wines and they've come out great. The few times I've tried stouts, the partigyle was superdry and overpowered by the dark malts. Nasty actually. So, think about pumping in some C40, and maybe backoff on the dark grains, or simply make sure you're collecting mostly work above 1.01 to minimizes tannins and give it a shot.

It's kinda free afterall. Worst case. Collect and use for a yeast starter.

P

 

[prohl84]

Is there a way of guessing what the gravity might be on the PG portion of the beer?

Yes.

This article.

The chart that goes with it.

This article and the downloadable excel spreadsheet.

How about milling another few lb of base malt to pull up my second beers gravity?

That's exactly what morticaixavier meant by "capping" with some flaked grain and base malt. As was advised, add enough water to account for grain absorb and do a short mash for conversion.

 

[morticaixavier]

Yes.

This article.

The chart that goes with it.

This article and the downloadable excel spreadsheet.



That's exactly what morticaixavier meant by "capping" with some flaked grain and base malt. As was advised, add enough water to account for grain absorb and do a short mash for conversion.

that chart is targeted at fly spargers. I used it at first and got really confused because I never hit my numbers like it said I should. Good for fly spargers though!

 

[Rkoory]

Thanks all,

Looks like I have quite a bit of planning yet to do before my brew day. Good thing this brew is still a few weeks off.

Cheers.

 

[prohl84]

that chart is targeted at fly spargers. I used it at first and got really confused because I never hit my numbers like it said I should. Good for fly spargers though!

Yeah I learned about this partigyle calculating thing about a month ago so I'm pretty new at it. The chart is a little wonky but it puts me in the ballpark typically. Are you doing 50-50 batches or some combo of thirds?

I found the spreadsheet thing on another thread here recently and I am still playing with/ comparing it against beersmith numbers. It appears as though I should be getting more extract from grain capping than the excel sheet says I will. Next brew will be my first capping attempt.

Looking through my notes if I enter the last two partigyles I did into the spreadsheet it is considerably more accurate than Mosher's tables.

I've had about 10 lightbulb moments since I posted last night. Lurking helps.

 

[morticaixavier]

Yeah I learned about this partigyle calculating thing about a month ago so I'm pretty new at it. The chart is a little wonky but it puts me in the ballpark typically. Are you doing 50-50 batches or some combo of thirds?

I found the spreadsheet thing on another thread here recently and I am still playing with/ comparing it against beersmith numbers. It appears as though I should be getting more extract from grain capping than the excel sheet says I will. Next brew will be my first capping attempt.

Looking through my notes if I enter the last two partigyles I did into the spreadsheet it is considerably more accurate than Mosher's tables.

I've had about 10 lightbulb moments since I posted last night. Lurking helps.

The spreadsheet is from Kai Troester. that's aimed at batch spargers. I think to get the capping correct you have to have a really good handle on your efficencies. I haven't played with that one in a while and should go back to it now that I have a refractometer and can get a good handle on my conversion efficiency.

 

[prohl84]

So how do you make your partigyle calculations?

Do you take such a drastic hit to efficiency on capping because the new mash is diluted by a bunch of already converted grain and all of the enzymes from your first mash are in the BK?

If that's the case I am thinking it would be more advantageous to conduct a separate minimash and add that wort to the 2nd runnings.

 

[morticaixavier]

So how do you make your partigyle calculations?

Do you take such a drastic hit to efficiency on capping because the new mash is diluted by a bunch of already converted grain and all of the enzymes from your first mash are in the BK?

If that's the case I am thinking it would be more advantageous to conduct a separate minimash and add that wort to the 2nd runnings.

It's somewhat empirical but it works on my system with my recipes. I enter two recipes in beersmith with the same grain bill. I label one first runnings and the other second runnings. any adjuncts I'm adding post mash to the first runnings get added to that recipe and any capping grains going into the second runnings and any adjuncts get added to that recipe.

I would have to be at home to check the exact %'s but I set the first runnings around 50-55% and the second runnings to around 25%. this generally works. I adjust it afterwards and if I see a trend I'll adjust me expectations going forward.

However when I was using Kai's spreadsheet it worked pretty well also.

 

[prohl84]

I think I might like that method better than the spreadsheet. Something about excel gives me headaches.

Thanks for settin' me straight on Mosher's tables in regard to sparging method. Makes sense that there would be a greater disparity in gravity between runnings in a batch sparging system since you're essentially trying to get as much as you can in a flush. Odd that neither the morebeer or beersmith partigyle articles say to calculate any differently when batch sparging.

 

[cluckk]

I would expect higher, but im not expecting a batch sparge with 20lbs of grain to hit a very high efficiency.

Is there a way of guessing what the gravity might be on the PG portion of the beer?

How about milling another few lb of base malt to pull up my second beers gravity?

I prefer to avoid DME. I have nothing against it. I've used quite a bit of it in the past.

I guess at the end of the day im happy to let the beer be what it is. However, I would like to walk into this process with a plan, and solid expectations of the final product.

I regularly batch sparge with 28 lbs of grain and see efficiency in the mid to upper 80's. I've had up to 94% with 20 lb batches.

 

[Rkoory]

I regularly batch sparge with 28 lbs of grain and see efficiency in the mid to upper 80's. I've had up to 94% with 20 lb batches.

Congratulations on your level of efficiency. That's great.

Personally, I usually pull about 70% on a 14 lb grain bill, so I'm guessing I'm going to be a bit lower with the bigger grain bill.

I'm not worried about chasing efficiency at the moment. At some point I will work to improve it I'm sure, but at the moment I think my beer efforts will bear better fruit if direct elsewhere. For the Time being, I'm happy just compensating with a bit more grain.