paralysis by analysis - Brewing Water Modifications

[redkegGV]

I want to start modifying my brewing water and i've overloaded myself with research. I have not gotten a water report yet. I did purchase a PH meter. I read and own Water by Palmer and Kaminski. I use a Culligan in-line filter on my outside hose tap for water and consistently make beers that place top two or better in local competitions. But I know i can do better.

What I think I know to be true:

Mash PH is one thing (helps with conversion and preserving longevity of packaged beer)
Brewing salts are another (the "seasonings" that will be different to compliment different styles, which will also affect PH of the boil and ultimately the yeast happiness)
PH at the time of pitching, and PH throughout fermentation is another thing (affecting overall yeast happiness)

My plan:

Start by dialing in mash PH and that is it to start.

My questions:

1. Is my plan silly and I should start off somewhere else?
2. Will hitting a target mash PH make THAT much of an impact on my final product?
3. Will shooting for a target mash PH muddy things down the line in the boil and fermentation if I don't make any other modifications later in the brewing process?
4. Has anyone else taken a "baby steps" approach to introducing water modifications to their brewing that proved to be fruitful?


Thanks all.

 

[micraftbeer]

Analysis paralysis. So easy to encounter in this hobby! Everybody's got opinions, so here are mine:

1. Hopefully the hose you're using is drinking water safe. Not that there's a true "safety" concern, but you can get a lot of bad flavors from the hose material if it's not. Plus lead and metals in the hose fittings can impart some unwanted flavors (or brain defects). This can be another analysis paralysis rabbit hole, so be careful on how much research you want to do. I ordered Camco TastePURE hose based on some lab test result comparisons I saw. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ME11FS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

2. I think hitting a water profile you like will have a more notable effect on your brew than honing in your mash pH. Of course, that's because I've been able to taste and personally confirm water profile results in the beer I've made. I've only recently started wading into measuring and trying to hit mash pH.

3. If you're going to try to hit a water profile, you'll have zero luck getting there without first knowing the mineral make-up of your starting water. I've read people sending water samples out to Wards for about $25/test. I also recently got a LaMotte BrewLab water analysis kit and I think it rocks. It has enough stuff to do up to 50 water tests, so you could theoretically split the $120 if you have any brewing buddies and you're good at sharing.

4. Once you've got your base water quantified, I don't think there's any one singular answer on water profile for every person/every beer. I used a "malt forward" and "hop forward" water profile from an all-grain brewing book. I stuck with those religiously since going AG. I eventually found my personal taste buds seemed to prefer the "hop forward" water profile for any beer style. Probably best to pick one and stick with it for a while until you get a sense of what it's maybe doing for you.

5. From what I've read in Palmer's How to Brew (4th edition), your wort/beer goes through pH transformation throughout your whole process. So setting up your mash pH feeds your boil kettle pH, feeds your fermentation ph, feeds your keg/bottle pH. So it seems like once you start trying to go after pH, just focus on the mash and don't get too stressed about the rest of it. Once that's under control, maybe try some more advanced techniques/processes for the later steps.

 

[redkegGV]

First, thank you for your very helpful opinions.

1. Hose water. There was a time where I literally ran the garden hose straight to my kettle. Yikes. Added the filter and it was a big improvement. You are the second person in two days to suggest new hose- RV hose to be exact. That may be a good, cheap, easy upgrade for this weekend.

2. Sounds like you are of the opinion that adding some salts will benefit my brews more than mash PH....

3. I've had that LaMotte Brewlab kit in my amazon cart for weeks and have not pulled the trigger. I'm doing it tonight.

4. Yes. This is my plan for when i get there.

5. So maybe my real question should have been.... will adjusting PH in the mash force me to rethink any salts I add in the boil? Should I take an approach of not changing two things at once? Or are these two things closely enough related that I probably SHOULD be changing both at the same time?

Based on your insights, I may forego all ideas about PH for the time being and focus on salts first..... ??????

 

[dmtaylor]

If you're feeling paralyzed, consider also this possibility:

 

[SanPancho]

Start with mash ph. Work on getting that dialed in.

Other good data to start collecting- kettle ph before boil, kettle ph at knockout/transfer, and final beer ph before you carb.

Get some data on your beers and then you can use those to,see if you want/need to adjust anything in the future. Those are the main points in the process you should know your typical values for to monitor progress of beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My plan:

Start by dialing in mash PH and that is it to start.

My questions:

1. Is my plan silly and I should start off somewhere else?
2. Will hitting a target mash PH make THAT much of an impact on my final product?
3. Will shooting for a target mash PH muddy things down the line in the boil and fermentation if I don't make any other modifications later in the brewing process?
4. Has anyone else taken a "baby steps" approach to introducing water modifications to their brewing that proved to be fruitful?

It is statistically unlikely that analysis paralysis can be cured by asking more questions.

Let's reduce all that water reading to a single, well curated, source of information (that is also HBT friendly): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/.

Stop asking questions.

Start brewing.

 

[micraftbeer]

Should I take an approach of not changing two things at once?

There are times when you don't want to do too many things at once. Like when you want to understand one factor all by itself. In this case, you say you want to start experimenting with water adjustments. You want to understand your water profile, and you want to understand your pH. By only going after one of them at a time, you'll just prolong your end goal in this case. If you wanted to be able to tell someone the effect water profile had on your beer alone versus the effect of mash pH by itself, then don't do them both at once. If you don't care which plays a more significant role, go for both.

Here's a link to a detailed review I did on the LaMotte BrewLab water test kit: http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2018/09/hands-on-review-lamotte-brew-lab-plus-water-test-kit.html

Also, of course buy where you want, but MoreBeer sells this for what appears to be the same price as Amazon, but has free shipping. https://www.morebeer.com/products/lamotte-brewlab-basic-water-test-kit-718901.html (Plus, I'm not as big of a fan of Amazon since they bought Whole Foods and now they carry multiple cases of A-B beer brands...)

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, the cost of the Ward's test was likely the smartest money I've spent in 15 years of making beer...

Cheers!

 

[corax]

A few observations from a water-treatment skeptic:

Many places, tap water composition changes seasonally -- sometimes the changes can be very large. City/district water reports tend to be either an average over a year, or a snapshot at a particular time. Neither is guaranteed to be accurate on a given day. Commercial tests are very accurate, but are you going to order a new one for every brew day?

Soft water (low in minerals) makes great beer, of virtually any style.

Some salts are not straight-forward to measure out accurately (particularly calcium chloride -- see this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/measuring-calcium-chloride.501377/ ).

pH meters are not easy to use accurately, and their quality/accuracy is very much in direct proportion to their cost.

Mash pH is a lot more forgiving than is usually admitted by water-treatment enthusiasts.

With a few notable exceptions (eg Burton on Trent), historical water analyses of brewing cities are complete BS. Even in the rare cases the analyses themselves are accurate, brewers would often pipe in their own water from distant wells or springs.

Excessive water treatment is at least as likely to make your beer taste awful as it is to make it taste good.

What I take home from the above facts:

If your water is fairly soft and tastes good from the tap (or after chlorine/chloramine removal), use it and don't worry about it. Otherwise, use RO water, treat it minimally, and don't worry about it.

Measure your mash pH a few times. If it's high, take steps to lower it (lactic or phosphoric acid, or a bit of acidulated malt). Once you've got it sussed out, don't worry about it anymore. (But always keep your sparge water below pH 6 -- or just don't sparge.)

However, if ****ing with water is something you really, truly love, then go for it. This is a hobby, and we should all do what we love to do.

 

[micraftbeer]

With everything that has a divergence of opinions in homebrewing, I study various sources and try to figure out what makes sense to me. But regardless what I read from opinions, I always trust my own taste buds. If I try something and it makes an effect to my perception of the beer, I'll ignore suggestions to the contrary and use that ingredient or process. I fully advocate everyone to do the same.

Here's my experience in brewing salts. I'm not saying this is gospel, just explaining why I do brewing salt water adjustments.

When I started AG, I used distilled water and added salts to hit a target water profile. Generally speaking, I was very pleased with my move from extract to AG . Fast forward many years and I switched from buying distilled water from the store and started brewing with our tap water, passed through a 3 filter system (not RO). The water tasted great.

I brewed 3 very different beers for a party over a couple weeks, and they all came out generally bland. I did another recipe that should've had a great hop taste but was very mellow and again bland.

So I got a water test kit to measure my starting water profile. Used a water calculator to target the same profile as I was going for previously when brewing with distilled water, and boom- my beer flavor popped again.

So from my experience I recommend water adjustments. But you have to know what you're starting with for base water to know how much of which salt to end up at your target. If you're happy with your current beer, then keep doing what you're doing. But if you're curious, do an experiment by buying distilled water from the store and some brewing salts to hit a target profile. See if it makes a difference to you.